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What can you guys tell me about full-auto BB guns?
- Thread Starter teflon6string
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I could write a bit on this one... Last year picked up both of the Umarex Steel Storm and the EBOS, then later on got a Drozd Bumblebee at a price I couldn't refuse. Think I have a hobby? LOL! Anyway, I'll hit the points brought up in the thread.
1. There are no Federal regulations regarding a full-auto air gun since they are not firearms. These kinds of guns are readily available over the counter without any special fees, paperwork, or other red tape to deal with. As far as state and local laws, it would be wise to check.
2. I am aware of the silencer issue, and from the commentary I have read and what research I have done, it does indeed appear to be a grey area. In a nutshell the basic gotcha is that the ATF may see a DETACHABLE airgun suppressor as something that could be used on an actual firearm, and that is where they could choose to hang you out to dry if caught. Now the suppressors on airguns like the GAMO Whisper are OK as they are not detachable.
3. The CO2 carts on the Drozd are good for about 75 shots, give or take. The Steel Storm uses two cartridges at once, and are good for about 200 shots. The EBOS uses the large CO2 carts, which are expensive and hard to find in this area. As such I installed an adapter for a CO2 tank. Obviously someone who is trigger happy (not hard at all with these guns! LOL!) will want to seriously consider doing the conversion to a tank.
4. Accuracy wise, all of these guns are capable of a high degree of accuracy. Obviously not on par with a dedicated target gun, but for plinking, fun, and general pest control are more than satisfactory. The only caveat here is that the Steel Storm comes with molded in plastic sights which may or may not be accurate. Be prepared to get either a laser or some kind of red dot/reflex sight if you go this route.
5. Quality wise... none of these guns are bad. I would say that the Drozd is the best of the bunch, but it is also the most expensive. I have heard a few complaints about the Steel Storm, but thus far I have not experienced even a hiccup with mine.
6. Power... Hands down the Drozd when tuned right... I initially had to do some tuning on it, but once done that thing packs a considerable wallop. The EBOS is supposed to be a very close second according to the paper numbers, but I personally found that the Drozd has noticeably better penetration into soft wood.
7. Rate of fire... out of the box the Steel Storm is by far the winner here, followed by the Drozd, and then the EBOS which resembles the Browning .50 cal.
8. Feel... or what I call the grin factor. The Steel Storm again wins this category as it has the best feel to it when shooting... it is also the only gun out of the bunch that actually has a kick to it. The Drozd and EBOS have electronic triggers and firing mechanisms, and as such they vibrate more than anything when fired.
9. Cost... Looking at $90 for the Umarex Steel Storm, $135 for the Umarex EBOS, and starting at $250 for the Drozd, depending on the specific gun you get.
10. Modability... From the standpoint of EXTERNAL mods, as in optics, grips, lasers, etc. either of the Umarex guns are the winner here. However, from the standpoint of internal mods like barrel swaps and tweakability, the Drozd is the clear winner.
11. Other options... there are currently 4 other options that I know of.
A. Back in the 80's there was an auto BB gun called the LARC which used a freon bottle for power. Probably a collectors item by now.
B. Next is the GMG machine gun posted by FA9 above. However for $750 and a long load time, I think I'll pass on that one! LOL!
C. Air-Ordinance makes a .22 Cal pellet machinegun that looks like it has some real power to it. However again it has a long load time and the $550 price tag is likewise a little too steep for me.
D. Cybergun Mini Uzi. These are very authentic looking, and while they come semi-auto out of the box, they are setup for full auto and are super easy to unlock. Currently running about $180, my only complaint is that power wise these are the weakest of the bunch. Muzzle velocity is in the 350 FPS range.
There may be others out there, but not currently aware of any.
So which one would I choose if I could only have one? That one would be a REALLY hard question to answer as they all have their good points and weaknesses. I suppose it comes down to budget and purpose, but if someone put a gun to my head and forced me to make a choice, it would probably be the Drozd.
1. There are no Federal regulations regarding a full-auto air gun since they are not firearms. These kinds of guns are readily available over the counter without any special fees, paperwork, or other red tape to deal with. As far as state and local laws, it would be wise to check.
2. I am aware of the silencer issue, and from the commentary I have read and what research I have done, it does indeed appear to be a grey area. In a nutshell the basic gotcha is that the ATF may see a DETACHABLE airgun suppressor as something that could be used on an actual firearm, and that is where they could choose to hang you out to dry if caught. Now the suppressors on airguns like the GAMO Whisper are OK as they are not detachable.
3. The CO2 carts on the Drozd are good for about 75 shots, give or take. The Steel Storm uses two cartridges at once, and are good for about 200 shots. The EBOS uses the large CO2 carts, which are expensive and hard to find in this area. As such I installed an adapter for a CO2 tank. Obviously someone who is trigger happy (not hard at all with these guns! LOL!) will want to seriously consider doing the conversion to a tank.
4. Accuracy wise, all of these guns are capable of a high degree of accuracy. Obviously not on par with a dedicated target gun, but for plinking, fun, and general pest control are more than satisfactory. The only caveat here is that the Steel Storm comes with molded in plastic sights which may or may not be accurate. Be prepared to get either a laser or some kind of red dot/reflex sight if you go this route.
5. Quality wise... none of these guns are bad. I would say that the Drozd is the best of the bunch, but it is also the most expensive. I have heard a few complaints about the Steel Storm, but thus far I have not experienced even a hiccup with mine.
6. Power... Hands down the Drozd when tuned right... I initially had to do some tuning on it, but once done that thing packs a considerable wallop. The EBOS is supposed to be a very close second according to the paper numbers, but I personally found that the Drozd has noticeably better penetration into soft wood.
7. Rate of fire... out of the box the Steel Storm is by far the winner here, followed by the Drozd, and then the EBOS which resembles the Browning .50 cal.
8. Feel... or what I call the grin factor. The Steel Storm again wins this category as it has the best feel to it when shooting... it is also the only gun out of the bunch that actually has a kick to it. The Drozd and EBOS have electronic triggers and firing mechanisms, and as such they vibrate more than anything when fired.
9. Cost... Looking at $90 for the Umarex Steel Storm, $135 for the Umarex EBOS, and starting at $250 for the Drozd, depending on the specific gun you get.
10. Modability... From the standpoint of EXTERNAL mods, as in optics, grips, lasers, etc. either of the Umarex guns are the winner here. However, from the standpoint of internal mods like barrel swaps and tweakability, the Drozd is the clear winner.
11. Other options... there are currently 4 other options that I know of.
A. Back in the 80's there was an auto BB gun called the LARC which used a freon bottle for power. Probably a collectors item by now.
B. Next is the GMG machine gun posted by FA9 above. However for $750 and a long load time, I think I'll pass on that one! LOL!
C. Air-Ordinance makes a .22 Cal pellet machinegun that looks like it has some real power to it. However again it has a long load time and the $550 price tag is likewise a little too steep for me.
D. Cybergun Mini Uzi. These are very authentic looking, and while they come semi-auto out of the box, they are setup for full auto and are super easy to unlock. Currently running about $180, my only complaint is that power wise these are the weakest of the bunch. Muzzle velocity is in the 350 FPS range.
There may be others out there, but not currently aware of any.
So which one would I choose if I could only have one? That one would be a REALLY hard question to answer as they all have their good points and weaknesses. I suppose it comes down to budget and purpose, but if someone put a gun to my head and forced me to make a choice, it would probably be the Drozd.
That's WA., We live in OR. :gun21:
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Hey Reindeer!
Man, thanks for the comprehensive scoop. I sort of let this idea lapse sometime back when I looked for an old school compressed-air carnival/arcade type full-auto BB gun. It seems they're expensive, not terribly accurate, tethered to a compressed air source, and largely not available without buying a whole arcade setup. There may be some exceptions, but that was the general feel of it.
Now my interest is piqued again after stumbling over reviews of Drozd and similar. Not keen on burning through a ton of those little CO2 cartridges, I see that adaptors are available for 9-, 12- and 20-ounce CO2 cans, which I can get refilled locally. Certainly willing to adapt some sort of sling/carrier device, I'm all fired up again.
...with more questions of course:
- If I build an arcade type target setup with a gently deflecting plywood BB trap/collector behind it, can I re-use recovered BB's after a good rinse and dry?
- I assume I'd keep at least two CO2 cans on hand (so I wouldn't run out completely at midnight with no refills). Do refilled spares "keep" for awhile?
- Any concerns about breathing several ounces of expelled CO2 in an enclosed space? (I skipped Physics and Biology to learn chords on my guitar.)
- What else should a noob like me consider in order to get started?
Thanks again for sharing your knowledge!
Man, thanks for the comprehensive scoop. I sort of let this idea lapse sometime back when I looked for an old school compressed-air carnival/arcade type full-auto BB gun. It seems they're expensive, not terribly accurate, tethered to a compressed air source, and largely not available without buying a whole arcade setup. There may be some exceptions, but that was the general feel of it.
Now my interest is piqued again after stumbling over reviews of Drozd and similar. Not keen on burning through a ton of those little CO2 cartridges, I see that adaptors are available for 9-, 12- and 20-ounce CO2 cans, which I can get refilled locally. Certainly willing to adapt some sort of sling/carrier device, I'm all fired up again.
...with more questions of course:
- If I build an arcade type target setup with a gently deflecting plywood BB trap/collector behind it, can I re-use recovered BB's after a good rinse and dry?
- I assume I'd keep at least two CO2 cans on hand (so I wouldn't run out completely at midnight with no refills). Do refilled spares "keep" for awhile?
- Any concerns about breathing several ounces of expelled CO2 in an enclosed space? (I skipped Physics and Biology to learn chords on my guitar.)
- What else should a noob like me consider in order to get started?
Thanks again for sharing your knowledge!
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You're welcome!
1. Generally NOT recommended as the BB can deform. HOWEVER I do know of a couple of people that do anyway. LOL! I would say though that as long as you are using steel BBs fired into a soft target (in your case plywood made out of pine), it probably wouldn't hurt anything to at least try.
2. Yes, they should keep indefinitely. The only thing is that you MIGHT have to get the tank hydrostatic tested every 3 years. When I was first getting into the hobby, online sources were saying that CO2 tanks didn't need to be checked, but the local shop here in town that does refills says they do. Cost is typically $35 for the test, so for a small CO2 tank, probably cheaper to replace.
3. No concerns... CO2 is non-toxic (Al Gore not-withstanding! LOL!).
4. Another option to consider is a High Pressure Air (HPA) setup. The tanks cost a little more, and they do have to get the hydrostatic test every three years for sure. However, HPA doesn't absorb heat when it expands like CO2 does... meaning that it won't freeze the bottle after so many shots and lose pressure. Another advantage is you can also run higher pressures out of HPA which of course means higher velocities :-D Most of the adapters to convert your guns out there would accept either source.
Be curious to know what you have in mind?
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You're welcome!
1. Generally NOT recommended as the BB can deform. HOWEVER I do know of a couple of people that do anyway. LOL! I would say though that as long as you are using steel BBs fired into a soft target (in your case plywood made out of pine), it probably wouldn't hurt anything to at least try.
2. Yes, they should keep indefinitely. The only thing is that you MIGHT have to get the tank hydrostatic tested every 3 years. When I was first getting into the hobby, online sources were saying that CO2 tanks didn't need to be checked, but the local shop here in town that does refills says they do. Cost is typically $35 for the test, so for a small CO2 tank, probably cheaper to replace.
3. No concerns... CO2 is non-toxic (Al Gore not-withstanding! LOL!).
4. Another option to consider is a High Pressure Air (HPA) setup. The tanks cost a little more, and they do have to get the hydrostatic test every three years for sure. However, HPA doesn't absorb heat when it expands like CO2 does... meaning that it won't freeze the bottle after so many shots and lose pressure. Another advantage is you can also run higher pressures out of HPA which of course means higher velocities :-D Most of the adapters to convert your guns out there would accept either source.
Be curious to know what you have in mind?
I believe the Strafer Mk 4 Mod 0 is more than Im looking for:
X-Caliber Tactical: Products - Strafer MK4 Mod 0
Im more than a little intrigued with the Drozd Blackbird (with some add-on mods of course). But in full trim with external tank, etc., the Tactical Edition comes to $821.47. More than most of my gunpowder firearms!
<broken link removed>
Didnt see the Bumblebee on that website. Is that no longer made/sold?
Airsoft is big around Portland and I can find pretty much anything in that department right away. So I was surprised to find only one place in town with .177 beyond the pump guns at Walmart, Bi-Mart and Big 5. The guy with an Umarex 6-round burst model in stock didnt think it was one I could mod much. My Crosman 2100 pump shoots 600-700 fps, and I want to be in the same neighborhood rather than going slower and wishing for more. So Ill do some research before I rush out and grab the only thing I can acquire today.
For daily use, Im thinking of making an arcade sort of arrangement in the basement with various targets and a gentle trap to collect and recycle the BBs. Thatll take some thought because I dont want to ruin an expensive barrel just to save a few bucks on dented ammo.
Beyond the indoor target range, I can picture some longer range fun outdoors, and some local rodent control since my neighbors insist on overfilling their birdfeeders directly above huge patches of English ivy where rats congregate and gorge themselves. Full-auto baby!
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Holy crap!!! That Strafer MK4 is impressive! Equally impressive pricetag though. Definitely has a much faster rate of fire than a modded out Drozd or Steel Storm. Hard to say about velocity though... the Drozd that you were looking at claims to be getting 1000 ft/sec. With a little tuning I know it is possible to get even more. Here's a video of it in action:
**** WE SHOOT IT ALL **** Drozd Blackbird Full Auto BB Machine Gun ** MUST SEE ** - YouTube
I know for a fact that those CRT tubes on the TV can be hard to penetrate. Really says a lot about how much power the modded out Drozd develops. If you went the bare bones route you should be able to put that package together for about $500 or so I would think.
Yeah, the Bumblebee version went out of production a few years ago... I guess people didn't care for the yellow casing very much! LOL! I can't complain though... the one I got was used, picked it up for $125 to the door, and even included an extra mag in the price. It's still the same basic gun as the Blackbird, except that it doesn't have the motorized hopper. All the internals are the same though.
I hear you about wanting to ruin a good barrel. Depending on what condition the BBs are in, you might want to consider a Steel Storm for that. It uses exactly the same tubing for the barrel as a Crosman 1600 pistol (yes, I was seeing what could be done to create an extension, and it turned out to be an exact fit.), so a replacement should be fairly cheap. Internally that guy you were talking to is correct... there isn't much you can do internally to a Steel Storm. You can modify it to remove the 6 round burst limit... requires going in and removing a cam. A one piece barrel extension is another possibility... if you can find an old and/or broken Crosman pump rifle that MIGHT work for a doner. Otherwise there is an adapter that you can put in the CO2 cartridge holder that will allow you to adapt to CO2/HPA. Externally, sky is the limit. There is a video out there on YouTube of some guy that managed to mount a fully functional Uzi stock on his... looks REALLY nice and didn't cost a lot either. I'm seriously thinking of doing that myself one of these times!
Post some pics of your arcade when you get it done! Would love to see what you were able to accomplish!
**** WE SHOOT IT ALL **** Drozd Blackbird Full Auto BB Machine Gun ** MUST SEE ** - YouTube
I know for a fact that those CRT tubes on the TV can be hard to penetrate. Really says a lot about how much power the modded out Drozd develops. If you went the bare bones route you should be able to put that package together for about $500 or so I would think.
Yeah, the Bumblebee version went out of production a few years ago... I guess people didn't care for the yellow casing very much! LOL! I can't complain though... the one I got was used, picked it up for $125 to the door, and even included an extra mag in the price. It's still the same basic gun as the Blackbird, except that it doesn't have the motorized hopper. All the internals are the same though.
I hear you about wanting to ruin a good barrel. Depending on what condition the BBs are in, you might want to consider a Steel Storm for that. It uses exactly the same tubing for the barrel as a Crosman 1600 pistol (yes, I was seeing what could be done to create an extension, and it turned out to be an exact fit.), so a replacement should be fairly cheap. Internally that guy you were talking to is correct... there isn't much you can do internally to a Steel Storm. You can modify it to remove the 6 round burst limit... requires going in and removing a cam. A one piece barrel extension is another possibility... if you can find an old and/or broken Crosman pump rifle that MIGHT work for a doner. Otherwise there is an adapter that you can put in the CO2 cartridge holder that will allow you to adapt to CO2/HPA. Externally, sky is the limit. There is a video out there on YouTube of some guy that managed to mount a fully functional Uzi stock on his... looks REALLY nice and didn't cost a lot either. I'm seriously thinking of doing that myself one of these times!
Post some pics of your arcade when you get it done! Would love to see what you were able to accomplish!
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Had a day off and made some phone calls to learn more about my BB gun project before I plunk down big bucks (hoping I got it right). It's a BIG leap from my Crosman single shot plinkers to full auto with external gas.
Those in the know with Airsoft and serious BB guns seem to agree that high pressure air (HPA) is preferable even to bulk CO2. An "aluminum 80" bulk air cylinder (SCUBA tank) can be filled to 3000 psi for $7. Through a $38 adapter, it puts 10-12 usable fills into a 48 cubic inch bottle that hooks to the gun (similar to a CO2 bottle). True, psi gets lower with each fill, as you're simply equalizing pressure between 2 tanks, but there should be plenty of power for a dozen decent charges.
Compare that with CO2. Sports Authority refills 20 ounce bottles for $10 each time. Maybe some cheaper places around, but that's what I found.
So, in a nutshell, frequent use makes the HPA investment worthwhile – if you live near a place that refills scuba tanks.
Ray at Drozd was great. A lot of businesses won't chat more than 1 minute on the phone if there's not a Visa card involved. But Ray had answers, resolving questions I still had after studying the Drozd webpage. I've pretty much decided what mods I want, and I'll pull the trigger in a few weeks if I stay this fired up.
Ray says he avoids giving advice per se, because choices are personal when it comes to customizing any piece. But he did say "Don't scrimp on BB's or batteries."
Paraphrasing:
Use steel only. It's more accurate and feeds better at super high rates than copper. And don't reuse them. Even with a "soft trap" like I envisioned, the BB's can deform when they hit each other in the trap. Even slightly dented BB's are bad in a precision system approaching 1000 fps - unless you want to wear out expensive parts and degrade performance.
And use Energizer lithium batteries only – never Alkaline.
Those in the know with Airsoft and serious BB guns seem to agree that high pressure air (HPA) is preferable even to bulk CO2. An "aluminum 80" bulk air cylinder (SCUBA tank) can be filled to 3000 psi for $7. Through a $38 adapter, it puts 10-12 usable fills into a 48 cubic inch bottle that hooks to the gun (similar to a CO2 bottle). True, psi gets lower with each fill, as you're simply equalizing pressure between 2 tanks, but there should be plenty of power for a dozen decent charges.
Compare that with CO2. Sports Authority refills 20 ounce bottles for $10 each time. Maybe some cheaper places around, but that's what I found.
So, in a nutshell, frequent use makes the HPA investment worthwhile – if you live near a place that refills scuba tanks.
Ray at Drozd was great. A lot of businesses won't chat more than 1 minute on the phone if there's not a Visa card involved. But Ray had answers, resolving questions I still had after studying the Drozd webpage. I've pretty much decided what mods I want, and I'll pull the trigger in a few weeks if I stay this fired up.
Ray says he avoids giving advice per se, because choices are personal when it comes to customizing any piece. But he did say "Don't scrimp on BB's or batteries."
Paraphrasing:
Use steel only. It's more accurate and feeds better at super high rates than copper. And don't reuse them. Even with a "soft trap" like I envisioned, the BB's can deform when they hit each other in the trap. Even slightly dented BB's are bad in a precision system approaching 1000 fps - unless you want to wear out expensive parts and degrade performance.
And use Energizer lithium batteries only – never Alkaline.
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There is? Where is this law? Link?
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I'm not sure if they will still do it, but back in the 80's we got our scuba tanks refilled at a fire station.
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SCUBA tank is a thought. Looking online, I see that they run about $150 or so... not as bad as I thought. Some of the HPA bottles cost more than that. Depending on what kind of setup you have in mind, you might even consider a direct attachment of the gun to the tank and not worry about the bottle.
The main advantage to CO2 until very recently has been the initial setup cost. Meaning you could get a bottle delivered to your door for about $20 or so, plus another $10 for the fill, and you're off and running. HPA bottles ran considerably more (Our local paintball shop wants $160 last time I checked, though you can get them off of Amazon for about $40 or so), plus you would need a regulator.
Never alkaline batteries? LOL! NOW they tell me!
Actually the reason why they recommend LiIon batteries is that with the increased pressure over stock it takes more of a load from the battery to allow the solenoid to work in the Drozd, and Alkaline batteries generally don't handle high load applications as well as the other types. However, if you are going down that road, you may want to give serious thought to getting rechargeable LiIon batteries. Not sure I'm following about copper BBs? Most BBs available are either copper plated steel or made out of lead. Think the reason why Ray was saying use steel is that the Drozd manual actually recommends using lead BBs in their guns.
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Based on the performance of my Crosman pump pistol and pump rifle, I see MUCH tighter groups using silver BB's. Consistently half the size of what I get with the copper colored ones.
I agree with your thought about rechargables. For a number of reasons.
That's a good idea about fire stations, mine is only 3-4 blocks away. I was surprised that a scuba tank was less than $200. I guess it's the regulator and stuff that boosts the price for divers. $7 for 10-12 portable bottle fills? That should zero out the setup price at some point, and I like the ability to refill (the bottles) at home whenever I'm out.
I agree with your thought about rechargables. For a number of reasons.
That's a good idea about fire stations, mine is only 3-4 blocks away. I was surprised that a scuba tank was less than $200. I guess it's the regulator and stuff that boosts the price for divers. $7 for 10-12 portable bottle fills? That should zero out the setup price at some point, and I like the ability to refill (the bottles) at home whenever I'm out.
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Curious, but what brand of BBs are you using?
Found this article you might find interesting.
Air guns - Pyramyd Air Report: Who makes the best BBs?
Found this article you might find interesting.
Air guns - Pyramyd Air Report: Who makes the best BBs?
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I try to buy any/all ammo in bulk so that it's consistent over time. Same thing with BB's. In fact, I'm glad I'm not aware of some superior expensive brand (because normal off-the-shelf stuff would never measure up again).
That's what pellets are for. Any pellet is far more accurate than any BB.
Crosman Copperhead BB's in big containers from Target and Walmart will make mediocre groups in my stock Crosman 2100 Classic pump. Especially at higher velocities. Sort of exaggerating any anomaly.
Daisy BB's from the same stores will cost about the same (maybe an extra buck) and consistently deliver much smaller groups - less than half the diameter of copper.
The label reads:
Daisy BBs
4000 Count
Premium Grade BBs
- Zinc Plated
- Ultra Smooth
.177 Cal. BB (4.5mm) Steel Airgun Shot
#0040
Part No. 145613-000
This stuff is very common. Works a LOT better for me.
That's what pellets are for. Any pellet is far more accurate than any BB.
Crosman Copperhead BB's in big containers from Target and Walmart will make mediocre groups in my stock Crosman 2100 Classic pump. Especially at higher velocities. Sort of exaggerating any anomaly.
Daisy BB's from the same stores will cost about the same (maybe an extra buck) and consistently deliver much smaller groups - less than half the diameter of copper.
The label reads:
Daisy BBs
4000 Count
Premium Grade BBs
- Zinc Plated
- Ultra Smooth
.177 Cal. BB (4.5mm) Steel Airgun Shot
#0040
Part No. 145613-000
This stuff is very common. Works a LOT better for me.
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I've heard nothing but good about Daisy BBs, but nobody carries them locally unfortunately. Suppose I'll need to order some the next time I'm over at Pyramyd Air.
Yeah, I hear you about pellets, and I feel the same way about the Crosman brand. Personally I like Beeman Kodiak heavy pellets for my Gamo break-action... they lose a little in velocity, but more than make up for it in penetration. The only problem is that they are a bit more spendy than the Wal-Mart stuff. However I digress!
Beeman Kodiak Extra Heavy .177 Cal, 10.20 Grains, Round Nose, 300 ct. - AirgunStyle.com
Yeah, I hear you about pellets, and I feel the same way about the Crosman brand. Personally I like Beeman Kodiak heavy pellets for my Gamo break-action... they lose a little in velocity, but more than make up for it in penetration. The only problem is that they are a bit more spendy than the Wal-Mart stuff. However I digress!
Beeman Kodiak Extra Heavy .177 Cal, 10.20 Grains, Round Nose, 300 ct. - AirgunStyle.com
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I've heard nothing but good about Daisy BBs, but nobody carries them locally unfortunately. Suppose I'll need to order some the next time I'm over at Pyramyd Air.
Yeah, I hear you about pellets, and I feel the same way about the Crosman brand. Personally I like Beeman Kodiak heavy pellets for my Gamo break-action... they lose a little in velocity, but more than make up for it in penetration. The only problem is that they are a bit more spendy than the Wal-Mart stuff. However I digress!
Beeman Kodiak Extra Heavy .177 Cal, 10.20 Grains, Round Nose, 300 ct. - AirgunStyle.com
If you have buddies who shoot BB's too, you should all request them a various local stores, maybe they'll start ordering some.
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Just a note....
I remember seeing an article about the Crossman MAR 177 upper for an AR15.
In it someone from the ATF made the statement that as long as the Crossman
upper was attached to an AR lower, the entire weapon was considered a FIREARM
and came under firearm rules.....Sounds like some over zealous Crap to me!:nuts:
I wonder what they consider the cross bow upper as???
Jack...
I remember seeing an article about the Crossman MAR 177 upper for an AR15.
In it someone from the ATF made the statement that as long as the Crossman
upper was attached to an AR lower, the entire weapon was considered a FIREARM
and came under firearm rules.....Sounds like some over zealous Crap to me!:nuts:
I wonder what they consider the cross bow upper as???
Jack...
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Just a note....
I remember seeing an article about the Crossman MAR 177 upper for an AR15.
In it someone from the ATF made the statement that as long as the Crossman
upper was attached to an AR lower, the entire weapon was considered a FIREARM
and came under firearm rules.....Sounds like some over zealous Crap to me!:nuts:
I wonder what they consider the cross bow upper as???
Jack...
That is because the serial numbered piece of any firearm is considered the "firearm". In this case the lower IS the firearm regardless of what upper you put on it. If you put a <16" barrel on it, you have an SBR unless there is no "shoulderable" buttstock, then it is a pistol.
I agree with you however....
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I've heard nothing but good about Daisy BBs, but nobody carries them locally unfortunately. Suppose I'll need to order some the next time I'm over at Pyramyd Air.
Yeah, I hear you about pellets, and I feel the same way about the Crosman brand. Personally I like Beeman Kodiak heavy pellets for my Gamo break-action... they lose a little in velocity, but more than make up for it in penetration. The only problem is that they are a bit more spendy than the Wal-Mart stuff. However I digress!
Beeman Kodiak Extra Heavy .177 Cal, 10.20 Grains, Round Nose, 300 ct. - AirgunStyle.com
Yup, I purchased my steel Daisy BB's at Walmart or Target, probably 2-3 years ago. I hope they still have 'em. In review, I see there's a bigger difference in price than I first cited because of the BB count ($16.93 for 4000 steel vs. $13.87 for 6000 copper), almost twice as much per round for steel, but well worth it for the increased accuracy IMHO.
If your local store doesn't carry them, you can get the zinc plated steel online through Toolking.com.
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Thank you!
Just a note....
I remember seeing an article about the Crossman MAR 177 upper for an AR15.
In it someone from the ATF made the statement that as long as the Crossman
upper was attached to an AR lower, the entire weapon was considered a FIREARM
and came under firearm rules.....Sounds like some over zealous Crap to me!:nuts:
I wonder what they consider the cross bow upper as???
Jack...
I agree with Stomper, though you are right about some people carrying things too far. Thinking of that incident of the Airsoft shop here in Oregon that got a shipment of airsoft guns seized by the ATF claiming that they could be converted to real firearms... LOL!
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