What ammo is in your CHL gun?

[PlayboyPenguin]

10 rounds of Speer .357sig 125gr. GDHP

 

[deadshot2]

I did a bunch of research and tried them all; Doubletap 124 gr +p in 9mm, Buffalo Bore 185 gr .45, 357 Sig +P+ 125gr.

Finally I just went, my odds of being in a gun fight are really small.... and my odds of having ammo that made ANY difference in stopping the threat even smalller... so an ammo website (AMMOMAN.com) had a special on Speer LE Gold Dots in all the common calibers... and I bought a bunch, loaded up all my EDC carry mags,and that's what I use. No more thinking about it. I fired off all the wacky crap. And if someone in a legal capacity ever asks me why I carry that load? The answer is..... 'Just about every law enforcement agency buys that ammo for their department. If it's good enough for the FBI, DEA, CBP, US Secret Service and hundreds of local and state police agencies, it's good enough for me.'

Why would anyone ask and why would you care? There is no case law that shows the type of ammo one carried played any role in first, the charges being filed, and second, whether or not the person was convicted. Self Defense is legal with ANY ammunition. If it isn't self defense it wouldn't matter if you were using "Police Approved" ammo.

BTW, don't bother citing the Massad Ayoob "Dead Horse" of the Daniel Bias case. That case had nothing to do with Self Defense. Likewise the Harold Fish case in Arizona where he was convicted under a law that was subsequently changed. The fact he carried a 10mm was not why he was convicted but the the old law.

I'm surprised it took so long for the "Police Approved" issue to be even mentioned. It's been discredited so many times it's not even remotely valid. Simple answer why police carry what they do. The least expensive that gets the job done.

 

[BAMCIS]

I did a bunch of research and tried them all; Doubletap 124 gr +p in 9mm, Buffalo Bore 185 gr .45, 357 Sig +P+ 125gr.

Finally I just went, my odds of being in a gun fight are really small.... and my odds of having ammo that made ANY difference in stopping the threat even smalller... so an ammo website (AMMOMAN.com) had a special on Speer LE Gold Dots in all the common calibers... and I bought a bunch, loaded up all my EDC carry mags,and that's what I use. No more thinking about it. I fired off all the wacky crap. And if someone in a legal capacity ever asks me why I carry that load? The answer is..... 'Just about every law enforcement agency buys that ammo for their department. If it's good enough for the FBI, DEA, CBP, US Secret Service and hundreds of local and state police agencies, it's good enough for me.'

Why would anyone ask and why would you care? There is no case law that shows the type of ammo one carried played any role in first, the charges being filed, and second, whether or not the person was convicted. Self Defense is legal with ANY ammunition. If it isn't self defense it wouldn't matter if you were using "Police Approved" ammo.

BTW, don't bother citing the Massad Ayoob "Dead Horse" of the Daniel Bias case. That case had nothing to do with Self Defense. Likewise the Harold Fish case in Arizona where he was convicted under a law that was subsequently changed. The fact he carried a 10mm was not why he was convicted but the the old law.

I'm surprised it took so long for the "Police Approved" issue to be even mentioned. It's been discredited so many times it's not even remotely valid. Simple answer why police carry what they do. The least expensive that gets the job done.

I see your point deadshot and it is very valid in CRIMINAL court, but not so much in CIVIL court when the Dawin awardees family argues it was your fault he was killed or maimed because you were using a hotter than standard round.

I can hear his attorney's argument now. It would go something like this, "........My poor client who although made some bad choices would not have been killed had he not met Mr. Citizen who always carrys a load that the police wouldn't even carry. He had it out for my client. He did not deserve to die......."

Then to mention you carry something that is not commonly carried or accepted by LE on an internet forum opens a big can of worms too if, God forbid you ever find yourself having to defend a use of force incident.

Previously, I mentioned I carry Zombie-Max which is really nothing more than Critical Defense in a cool looking box. But nonetheless Critical Defense IS carried by LE.

Just something to think about.........

 

[deadshot2]

I see your point deadshot and it is very valid in CRIMINAL court, but not so much in CIVIL court when the Dawin awardees family argues it was your fault he was killed or maimed because you were using a hotter than standard round.

I can hear his attorney's argument now. It would go something like this, "........My poor client who although made some bad choices would not have been killed had he not met Mr. Citizen who always carrys a load that the police wouldn't even carry. He had it out for my client. He did not deserve to die......."

Then to mention you carry something that is not commonly carried or accepted by LE on an internet forum opens a big can of worms too if, God forbid you ever find yourself having to defend a use of force incident.

Previously, I mentioned I carry Zombie-Max which is really nothing more than Critical Defense in a cool looking box. But nonetheless Critical Defense IS carried by LE.

Just something to think about.........

This argument doesn't carry any weight either. Self Defense is still just that and what holds in Criminal court will also hold in Civil Court. Civil Court will not hear a Homicide case, just a wrongful death or injury case. If there was any credence to your argument than it would logically hold that the only firearms we should be carrying would be wimpy .22's or .380's. Heaven forbid someone should want to shoot/kill/maim an attacker with an S&W 500, any pistol chambered for 50AE, or any of those darn "Elmer Keith favorites" the .357 Magnum. Hell, everyone knows a 45 will "tear a man's arm off if he's hit in the thumb" so those ubiquitous 1911's are out too.

The key to staying out of BOTH courts isn't by being careful what ammo you carry, whether purchased ready made or hand crafted. The best way is to know when you can and can't use Deadly force for Self Defense.

Back to the "hotter than standard" argument, what about baseball bats that are used around the house for self defense? Only wood bats or how about a weighted aluminum bat? Hatchet or double-bitted axe? Straight blade or phillips head screwdriver? Steak knife or Meat Cleaver? Those are the arguments MY attorney would use if faced with the ridiculous claim of "hotter then even what the police would carry". He'd also just put down a box of "civilian ammo" and one of "For Law Enforcement Only" with the simple implication that even civilians can't obtain the super lethal ammo that police carry.

Just something to think about.........

Yes, and the more one THINKS about it the more ridiculous the argument is. Plus the fact that many States have laws that pretty much forces any civil litigant to be able to prove pure negligence on the shooter's part. Add that to the fact that a prosecutor wouldn't file charges------ More to think about.

 

[BAMCIS]

deadshot you don't have to convince me. I'm totally on board with you. But you and I have common sense. You and I know the "ways of the world" so to speak. I'm simply saying the people who need to be convinced are the twelve idiots sitting in judgement who believe and buy into the theatrics that we all know a personal injury/wrongful death attorney is capable of. And not necessarily the dirt-bag's attorney either. Perhaps it's the the little old lady accross and down the street who in the act of feeding her 47 cats got in the way of a round fired by you in your home at Mr. Dirtbag. Yes, you are totally absolved in CRIMINAL court, but what about civli court? The arguments possible are only limited by the imagination of the wrongful death/personal injury attorney.

Although I'm not 100% up on what is admissible in a court, I do not believe any judgements of a criminal criminal case can be brought into a civil case. Again, I could be wrong and your milage may vary.

 

[DieselScout]

deadshot you don't have to convince me. I'm totally on board with you. But you and I have common sense. You and I know the "ways of the world" so to speak. I'm simply saying the people who need to be convinced are the twelve idiots sitting in judgement who believe and buy into the theatrics that we all know a personal injury/wrongful death attorney is capable of. And not necessarily the dirt-bag's attorney either. Perhaps it's the the little old lady accross and down the street who in the act of feeding her 47 cats got in the way of a round fired by you in your home at Mr. Dirtbag. Yes, you are totally absolved in CRIMINAL court, but what about civli court? The arguments possible are only limited by the imagination of the wrongful death/personal injury attorney.

Although I'm not 100% up on what is admissible in a court, I do not believe any judgements of a criminal criminal case can be brought into a civil case. Again, I could be wrong and your milage may vary.

I find it funny, you are referring to a jury of your peers as 12 idiots. LMAO

When it comes down to it, if you get in this situation and you find 12 idiots on the jury, you need to fire your lawyer. It's up to them to do all that he can to get good jurors and if they cannot do it, then you should have got someone else. It is after all your life and freedom at stake.

I guess I am an idiot, because I go when I get called for jury duty. It's my faint hope in society that other who are as smart and informed as I do the same. People are proud to brag how they can get out of jury duty and bubblegum and moan about going. The sad fact is few people realize it's as important as voting and those who don't treat it accordingly.

 

[drew]

I guess I am an idiot, because I go when I get called for jury duty. It's my faint hope in society that other who are as smart and informed as I do the same. People are proud to brag how they can get out of jury duty and bubblegum and moan about going. The sad fact is few people realize it's as important as voting and those who don't treat it accordingly.

I've always gone to jury duty when called. It might be a chore for a little while but the stakes are substantially higher for a defendant.

 

[drew]

I guess I am an idiot, because I go when I get called for jury duty. It's my faint hope in society that other who are as smart and informed as I do the same. People are proud to brag how they can get out of jury duty and bubblegum and moan about going. The sad fact is few people realize it's as important as voting and those who don't treat it accordingly.

I've always gone to jury duty when called. It might be a chore for a little while but the stakes are substantially higher for a defendant.

It's very rare when someone calls me an idiot and is serious.

 

[BAMCIS]

It seems the point I was trying to make has been lost. I give up.

Peace

 

[deadshot2]

I find it funny, you are referring to a jury of your peers as 12 idiots. LMAO

When it comes down to it, if you get in this situation and you find 12 idiots on the jury, you need to fire your lawyer. It's up to them to do all that he can to get good jurors and if they cannot do it, then you should have got someone else. It is after all your life and freedom at stake.

People also overlook the role of the Judge. When one side has presented their case, the other almost always moves for a dismissal based on the failure to prove the case (Prosecutor in Criminal or Defendant in Civil). At this point, if the Judge feels the motion is correct, the case is dismissed.

If it does go to that jury of "idiots", they are carefully schooled on the facts and points of law they may consider during their deliberations.

Should the Defendant still be convicted, there is often a motion to set aside the verdict as notwithstanding the evidence. Again the Judge plays a role.

I still maintain though that if one's Self Defense shooting ends up in either Criminal or Civil Court, something went real wrong back at the incident in question.

I've taken a lot of time and read accounts of trials where a claim of Self Defense was denied by the Jury and always came up with the question "How could he/she be so stupid?". And the stupidity didn't involve ammunition.

 

[SBC97281]

I like the Zombie Max stuff. Racking a round into the 12 gauge sounds reassuring if not practical.

View attachment 49757

 

[jib]

I carry Speer 230gr. Gold Dot in my 1911

I carry 230gr FMJ in my Colt 70's ser. Gov. 1911

 

[deadshot2]

I like the Zombie Max stuff. Racking a round into the 12 gauge sounds reassuring if not practical.

You'd think by the way people talk, that "racking sound" should be all that's necessary. Even racking an empty shotgun should cause an intruder to suddenly wish they were wearing "Depends". No ammo required.

BTW, what should a person who has a 12ga "Coach Gun" (a side/side double barrel "shortie") do? Learn how to make a "racking sound" with his voice?

(just some friendly sarcasm)

 

[XSubSailor]

I like the Zombie Max stuff. Racking a round into the 12 gauge sounds reassuring if not practical.

I don't know of anyone that uses a 12 ga as their CHL gun...

 

[Dan-Dee Sales Inc]

You are my new NWFA hero that is way cool.. Zombie ammo doesn't get any better then that

Since it is Critical Defense with a green tip. lol

 

[decay]

factory stuff , per Massad Ayoob !

 

[deadshot2]

factory stuff , per Massad Ayoob !

And who made him the ultimate authority? Answer= Himself.

His mandate has no basis in law, case law, or even in logic.

 

[underdog58]

just got a ruger 380 lcp. any input on best defense ammo that won't jam. I hear too flat a HP will not eject correctly. I bought a box of Hornady HD ammo. havent run it through yet.

 

[orygun]

just got a ruger 380 lcp. any input on best defense ammo that won't jam. I hear too flat a HP will not eject correctly. I bought a box of Hornady HD ammo. havent run it through yet.

The few people I know with LCPs use Hornady Critical Defense. You should see if it feeds in your gun. In my 380 I use Speer Gold Dot HP.

 

[deadshot2]

Polish the feed ramp and most any brand will feed. Factory finish is usually just ground with a microinch finsh of 4-6, sometimes even rougher. Polish it with some jeweler's rouge and a dremel tool so it literally shines. Then just make sure to clean off any lead/copper that might build up as you shoot.