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Here's that Federal with the stellar reputation.. not as small a hole as the Silvertip or old Remington but it's round.

FC-9BPLE.jpg
 
As I understand the legal reasoning? If you purchase something from the factory that are hollow point, it was designed that way and the idea is that you are using a round that's been designed for self-defense. If you change something from the factory design to make it more lethal- in spite of the legal argument "But its less effective than factory hollow points!" the point still remains you premeditatedly made them more lethal- hence the 1st degree murder charge.

Like I said before- what you think the law is and how its implemented is two completely different things.

For those of you who wanted to inspect my butt for various flying objects? You keep your opinion- really. I'm totally wrong! Yes! its true! I'm 100% wrong! You go with your opinion- and when you're in jail make sure you post here so we can laugh at you ok?

I'll accept the sounds of crickets chirping, wind and tumbleweeds as an apology for how you shot your mouth off yesterday
 
I forgot to mention the barnes tac-XPD. I carry these while pig hunting in my sidearm.

AM? Please pardon my ignorance but aren't wild pigs rather large and dangerous and like any other wild animal they're very attuned to their environment? So what do you gain by hunting with a pistol? Is it the speed you can whip the firearm around? Is it because it's lighter to carry? I'm not a hunter thats why I'm asking
 
As I understand the legal reasoning? If you purchase something from the factory that are hollow point, it was designed that way and the idea is that you are using a round that's been designed for self-defense. If you change something from the factory design to make it more lethal- in spite of the legal argument "But its less effective than factory hollow points!" the point still remains you premeditatedly made them more lethal- hence the 1st degree murder charge.

Like I said before- what you think the law is and how its implemented is two completely different things.

For those of you who wanted to inspect my butt for various flying objects? You keep your opinion- really. I'm totally wrong! Yes! its true! I'm 100% wrong! You go with your opinion- and when you're in jail make sure you post here so we can laugh at you ok?

I'll accept the sounds of crickets chirping, wind and tumbleweeds as an apology for how you shot your mouth off yesterday

You are just a ray of sunshine on a rainy day. :s0140:
 
I'm beginning to understand where the expression "When the revolution comes the lawyers will be the first ones shot" comes from.

Can we please stay on topic to determine the best combination of reliability and effectiveness in a 9mm round? Please?
 
AM? Please pardon my ignorance but aren't wild pigs rather large and dangerous and like any other wild animal they're very attuned to their environment? So what do you gain by hunting with a pistol? Is it the speed you can whip the firearm around? Is it because it's lighter to carry? I'm not a hunter thats why I'm asking
I don't think he said he's killed pigs with those.
Why hunt with a handgun? They work and it's sporting. If you can hit what you intend to, a 9mm with good ammo is plenty medicine for 200lb hogs easy.. I've done it plenty of times.
 
AM? Please pardon my ignorance but aren't wild pigs rather large and dangerous and like any other wild animal they're very attuned to their environment? So what do you gain by hunting with a pistol? Is it the speed you can whip the firearm around? Is it because it's lighter to carry? I'm not a hunter thats why I'm asking

Wild pigs are also pack animals, usually they travel in groups of up to 5-10+, they are also strong, fast, can be very aggressive and are well equipped to deal out a lot of punishment. If for some reason I run out of bullets, my primary rifle goes down, or I'm too close for comfort, I carry a sidearm. Pigs because of their body construction have a heavy cartilage fighting plate that covers the neck, shoulders and rib-cage. To get through this, you need a bullet with controlled expansion that is capable of penetrating this layer, and moving at least 7" to get into the vital cavity. Solid copper, bonded core bullets work best, a point blank range shot means high muzzle velocity, which can tear conventional hollowpoints apart, creating fragmentation, that while it may increase the wound impulse will not put the energy in the right spot to make kills. The first pig I took was with a .308 150gr soft point, at a range of about 50 yards. At that distance the bullet was still doing 2700FPS, which literally tore that crappy bullet apart, it barely penetrated the vital cavity however the bullet exploded in the shoulder destroying a huge quantity of the edible meat.

As such, I've since switched to .223 for pig hunting (legal in california on the family ranch) using the barnes TSX-FB, penetration is the name of the game with pigs, however humans are a "light thin skinned game", we don't have heavy cartilage layers protecting our vitals, in the most fantastic of cases there may be a 4-5" layer of fat over the digestive organs, but this is rare over the vitals (chest cavity) thus a bullet that will dump it's energy and penetrate at least 6" without fragmentation is what I would consider ideal. If you look at the testing videos that show ballistic gelatin tests, you will see an average penetration somewhere between 8 and 9", this is sufficient to completely penetrate the vital cavity and affect the muscle groups and nerve bundles in the back.

Now, to give some specifics as to why dum-dum's are a poor substitute... the core on FMJ's is usually made out of some variety of soft lead, and there is typically little bonding between core and jacket, this means fragmentation is a near certainty. Also, because the bullet is not designed to expand it is quite likely that it will yaw and tumble, which is about the same performance you would expect from a ball round. Additionally, all hollowpoints are not created equal, the HP designs of 20-30 years ago are a far cry from the performance you should expect from the modern designs, in the past jacket separation, yawing, and fragmentation were the norm. Modern designs have worked hard to solve several deficiencies, namely: plugging (where the hollowpoint gets plugged by clothing or drywall), core/jacket separation, fragmentation, and over-penetration. As well as tuning the design to alleviate feeding issues in a wide variety of firearms.

If you look at some modern bullet designs, there will actually be a gradient of hardness in the lead, where soft lead is put at the front to create rapid expansion, and harder lead at the base to control expansion. This kind of technology can be difficult and expensive to employ, as a result it would not be in common use on commodity FMJ bullets, regardless of manufacturer.
 
What I'm going to suggest will send you to jail if you're caught ok? I mean "throw you up against the wall with your family, and shoot everyone dead" kind of illegal.

Get the cheapest ball ammo you can. Take a pocketknife and put an "X" on the tip- this is called a dum dum bullet. Its illegal as hell per the Geneva Convention and the military has a very dim view of them.

I suggest this for two reasons: 1)FMJ round nose will usually feed reliably no mater what 2)That "X" will not catch on the pistols feed ramp like the hollow points do.

Just remember this is last ditch ammo- if the poo's that deep it won't mater about the finer points of the law right?
What does the Geneva convention have to do with anything???
 
What is the best 9mm round/bullet to have on hand for SHTF? Pistols are large frame - a Taurus PT99 (Beretta clone), Tanfoglio TZ-75 (CZ-75 clone) and M&P 9mm. I'm not sure is any/all of these can handle +p ammo.

Are you planning on reloading your own, or are you thinking buying factory?

As I read it, for factory ammo if it is defensive you are probably good to go.
Hornady, Federal, etc. The rest is marketing. Of course, you do have to invest a box or 2 (50 rds) to ensure your pistol will reliably run the ammo.

My experience is in short barrel firearms (ex PF 9) heavy bullets (147gr) work better. And better is a relative term. Also, that doesn't mean they don't' work well in standard length barrels; or that you should not use light bullets (90-115gr) in the short barrel guns. In a SHTF situations, you might end up with a different firearm that the one you have initially described.

If you are building your own, that is a whole different can of research.
 
Thanks for the input. Reloading is part of my SHTF plan - I plan on reloading my ball ammo as I shoot it, some will be ball, others will be defensive.
 
Thanks for the input. Reloading is part of my SHTF plan - I plan on reloading my ball ammo as I shoot it, some will be ball, others will be defensive.

This is a very difficult perplexing problem is as follows: keep the stuff on hand for reloading (takes up volume and time) or just keep already loaded rounds on hand (takes up volume). I've seen both sides of this question and Murphys law kicked my butt. I tooled up hard for reloading then it dawned upon me if I'd spent the same amount of money of premanufactured rounds I'd have saved the time. *Shrugs* Your mileage may vary but I'd lean towards the heaviest bullet, premanufactured cartridges rather than "roll your own".
 
Good point. I've been reloading a long time, so the investment in equipment is already there. Except for rimfire, 9mm and 556, virtually every shot I've fired was one I've reloaded. For the most part my ammo is kept loaded and ready for use. Reloading is to save money by reusing the brass, but also for the self sufficiency aspect. Ideally, I'd like a defensive round that uses a bullet I can also purchase as a separate component.
 
Yes, they do, unfortunately, they arn't very good bullets. I think it was the federals, but many years ago I used to carry these in my 1911, and one day we were out at the desert and I wanted to see what they did, so I took some 3gal water containers and lined them up and rapid fired 3 shots into the water. They expanded just fine, problem was every one of them shed the jacket and only barely punctured the second container.

Core separation is a major defect when it comes to shooting things to make them dead.
 
Perhaps trailtrader, since he is in the legal profession can cite a case in Oregon that makes his point. A single case Trailtrader.

If not in Oregon, then how about anywhere. Any state. Cite it.

As far as anyone making a bullet illegal by knifing on it: hah. However, with current technology, factory hollow points are all pretty good. Anyone want to get hit by any of these?

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Shop the sales and seal it well if you are thinking long term storage for a SHTF event.
 
This is a very difficult perplexing problem is as follows: keep the stuff on hand for reloading (takes up volume and time) or just keep already loaded rounds on hand (takes up volume). I've seen both sides of this question and Murphys law kicked my butt. I tooled up hard for reloading then it dawned upon me if I'd spent the same amount of money of premanufactured rounds I'd have saved the time. *Shrugs* Your mileage may vary but I'd lean towards the heaviest bullet, premanufactured cartridges rather than "roll your own".


It is not a hard problem at all. Simple economics. It depends on how much you load. Last month I was considering this same problem and remembered why I reload even though I am often short on time.

I am loading some rifle rounds now and I considered buying since I have more money then time at the moment. The cheapest I could find was going to cost me $1/rd and right now I have somewhere between 1000-1500 pieces of brass prepped to load. So lets just use 1000rds for this one example. Right now my cost/rd to load is about $0.25. So in 1000 rds I save $750 which basically covers the cost of the equipment. On the second 1000rds I am ahead and beyond that WAY ahead.

Here is another one. Cost for .50 AE ammo is $2-3/rd so that is $1000 for 500rds. I just loaded 500rds for for about $125.

I see nothing perplexing about that.

Sure if you are only loading a few hundred rounds, or the ammo you are loading can be had very cheap it gets harder.
 
Lots of ball rounds due to cost and then look at Critical Defense or Hydrashocks for serious business. Ball rounds are cheap and non-expansive but I don't know anyone that would want to get hit by one.
 

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