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What 9mm Round

Discussion in 'Preparedness & Survival' started by 3MTA3, Feb 16, 2014.

  1. 3MTA3

    3MTA3 DMZ between Liberty and Tyranny Behind Enemy Lines Bronze Supporter

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    What is the best 9mm round/bullet to have on hand for SHTF? Pistols are large frame - a Taurus PT99 (Beretta clone), Tanfoglio TZ-75 (CZ-75 clone) and M&P 9mm. I'm not sure is any/all of these can handle +p ammo.

    I get that there are better rounds out there than 9mm, but I'm not interested in them at this time.

    The last time I looked at a 9mm defensive round, believe it or not was in the late 80's. At that time the 115gr Winchester Silvertip was king. I still have about a hundred of them, but no bad guys have volunteered to play catcher, so there they sit.

    Figuring that there must have been some advancements in bullet design in the last 25 years, I'm looking for the best current 9mm in terms of stopping power. I'm not worried about shooting through anything tougher than a leather jacket - if I'm using pistol ammo against body armor I'm pretty much screwed. Preferably looking for something that can be bought off the shelf as well as something I can reload.
     
  2. jluck

    jluck Really,Really, Close to Newport Oregon 97365 Voted #1 Member

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    I would start with a huge quantity of whatever cheap stuff your guns will shoot reliably, Then go for defensive, designer stuff.
     
  3. 3MTA3

    3MTA3 DMZ between Liberty and Tyranny Behind Enemy Lines Bronze Supporter

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    I currently have about a thousand rounds of ball ammo, and I can't remember the last time I had a jam or other malfunction. I'm looking to get opinions ind insight on the best current 9mm defensive round. I intend to reload some of the ball ammo as defensive loads after its been fired.
     
  4. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf SE Portland Well-Known Member

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    Are you looking to stockpile or looking for the very best? For a bit of both, the Federal 9mm 115+P+ JHP 9BPLE is hard to beat.. it used to be like $18 for a box of fifty.. about a year or so ago but good luck on anything these days.
    The round is proven and has been used by law enforcement for a very long time with very good results.
     
  5. 3MTA3

    3MTA3 DMZ between Liberty and Tyranny Behind Enemy Lines Bronze Supporter

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    You are correct - a bit of both, and thanks for the info. Doing a bit of armchair research it looks like there haven't been any significant changes in bullet design, but the current thought is that for 9mm heavier bullets perform better than lighter bullets in the defensive situations where handguns are most frequently used. Since I also want to me able to reload I'm going to check out Speer Red Dot and Hornady XTP in 124 and 147 gr.

    Here is one article I was reading: Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo
     
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  6. bzltyr

    bzltyr Portland Metro area Active Member

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    I agree stock up on cheap stuff. Defensive loads....124 or 147 gr. ? Critical defense
     
  7. kickstart my heart

    kickstart my heart South King County, WA Active Member

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    I'd buy a ton of ball ammo and stockpile it. Heck of a lot cheaper to buy 1000 rounds of ball than defensive rounds. Georgia Arms and Freedom Munitions used to load up some bulk hollow point stuff for reasonable prices. Biggest thing, if you must have defensive ammo, run it through all your guns to make sure they'll function reliably. Doesn't do you any good to have lots of expensive ammo that will "put down a bad guy better" if your gun won't feed it. I don't mean run 20 round through and call it good. Run a couple hundred rounds through each gun before you stake your life on it. For my daily carry guns, I usually run Winchester Ranger stuff. Their .45acp and 9mm stuff run great in my guns. However for my shtf stash, it's all ball ammo. For my long guns it's all standard fmj stuff. Nothing fancy.
     
  8. 3MTA3

    3MTA3 DMZ between Liberty and Tyranny Behind Enemy Lines Bronze Supporter

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    Thanks for the Georgia Arms and Freedom Munitions tips. The best deal I've seen locally is new reloadable CCI qty 350 for $120 at Sportsmans Warehouse. Also for the advice to run several hundred rounds of HP's before trusting my life. Expensive, but I'll likely reload from spent ball ammo, so not too bad.
     
  9. Kevinkris

    Kevinkris Aloha Well-Known Member

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    i have a EAA witness (tanfoglio) in 9mm and it happens to be exceptionally comfortable to shoot. it has a variety of barrel lengths to choose from and you can get kits from them to convert to different calibers that only change the slide package and mag. no tools needed to field stripping and is light weight. i would recommend it to anyone lookn for a new pistol. it cannot use +p though.
     
  10. 3MTA3

    3MTA3 DMZ between Liberty and Tyranny Behind Enemy Lines Bronze Supporter

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    My Tanfoglio TZ-75 is by far the most comfortable dual stack 9 I've ever held. The grip on the Witness looks identical, no wonder it's so comfortable to shoot.
     
  11. Kevinkris

    Kevinkris Aloha Well-Known Member

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    yea i guess they do use the same grip design on many of their items, not a bad thing when it seems to work very well. its a nice bonus that they tend to be lower in the price range for their quality too.

    ive never fired a handgun with +p, nor have i looked up how much of a difference it makes. is it worth looking for in a defense weapon? what i found doing a bit of general research is much of the damage the projectile will do depends on the size and weight of it rather than its speed; at the range you would be firing a handgun anyway.
     
  12. U201492

    U201492 Well-Known Member

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    What I'm going to suggest will send you to jail if you're caught ok? I mean "throw you up against the wall with your family, and shoot everyone dead" kind of illegal.

    Get the cheapest ball ammo you can. Take a pocketknife and put an "X" on the tip- this is called a dum dum bullet. Its illegal as hell per the Geneva Convention and the military has a very dim view of them.

    I suggest this for two reasons: 1)FMJ round nose will usually feed reliably no mater what 2)That "X" will not catch on the pistols feed ramp like the hollow points do.

    Just remember this is last ditch ammo- if the poo's that deep it won't mater about the finer points of the law right?
     
  13. DieselScout

    DieselScout S Clackamas County Well-Known Member

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    Using any expanding ammunition was outlawed by the Hague Convention for militaries engaged in war. This would include all of the expanding defense ammunition most of carry today. We are not a military, we are not at war and expanding ammunition is not illegal. So unless you can post up a state or federal law pertaining to us, stop spreading bad information
     
  14. U201492

    U201492 Well-Known Member

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    There's some truth to what you have said. HOWEVER- lets say you're a prosecutor and you're PROSECUTING a guy and you show a jury that the defense modified stock bullets to make them more deadly.

    Do you have any idea- any idea at all- how long you would stay in prison? Like YOU just posted, the Hauge Convention,,,,,

    Perception is reality- and rather than being humane and allowing the defendant a reasonable person's defense, s/he intentionally modified these FACTORY BULLETS so they would be more deadly....

    Yeah, you just keep right on thinking "Theres no law..."

    Best example: "the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"- you may have read this while looking at the 2nd Amendment. Technically per Blacks Law Dictionary- you can look this up online by the way- shall in the legal sense means "mandatory, as in "will do". Now look around you and see all the gun laws that are on the books.
     
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  15. jbett98

    jbett98 NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    The real Dum-Dum is the member(s) who spouts stupid advice that nobody wants to hear.
     
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  16. DieselScout

    DieselScout S Clackamas County Well-Known Member

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    You're an idiot. The Hague convention does not apply to us because WE are not a military, WE are not at war. Weather or not it's a good idea in the legal sense is for you to make your own judgement. Regardless there is no LAW affecting the common man regarding cutting an X in a bullet. It won't get you lined up and shot like you were saying. Go troll elsewhere.
     
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  17. Kevinkris

    Kevinkris Aloha Well-Known Member

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    why do people pull these kinds of things out of their asses? Trail, do you not realize what you described is simply a makeshift way of making the same rounds you can buy in stores all over the country?
     
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  18. U201492

    U201492 Well-Known Member

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    1)I am not debating what it is, nor am I debating the field expediency of this OK? 2)I was offering my opinion as a Paralegal- only attorneys can practice law. If I said what the law is, I would be practicing law and that falls under the category of "a bad thing".

    A criminal case ideally has 4 "legs" to stand up in court OK? Lets go down the list shall we? Lets assume premediated murder charges are being brought against YOU for making dum dum bullets

    The ideal court case will equal 100% of the following.

    1)Intent: you intentionally modified a factory bullet to make it more lethal. (25%- from forensic evidence)

    2)Your motovation: Revenge and murder (Remember- this is going before a Judge and Jury- its the Prosecutor's job to put you in a bad light). (25%- because under the "Reasonable Person Doctorine" a "reasonable person" wouldn't have made the bullets more lethal)

    3)Ability: YOU did in fact put a cross on the tip of the bullets to make them more lethal- YOU just admitted it. (another 25%)

    4)What you gain by doing this? Dead men tell no tales- but survivors WILL sue you even if you're legally in the right, and criminal charges WILL be brought against you until you are proven innocent. (I'm going to call this 12.5%)

    Now, for the Criminal charges to stick, you need a "Preponderance of Evidence" which is generally considered to be 90% or more- right now, you're at about 87% give or take a bit. A smart attorney- a seasoned prosecutor- will push that over 90% and you go to jail.

    If you don't like that, you sure won't like the Civil Trial version; you only need 51% for conviction.

    I'd suggest you study OJ Simpson's criminal trial, and then compare it to the Goldman's Civil Trial.

    OJ did beat the criminal charges- but look at the "legal dream team" it took to do it.

    OJ did NOT BEAT the Civil charges- and it cost him $31 million dollars to the Goldmans' Estate.

    People, I don't know where you think your opinion of the law comes from other than watching too much "Law & Order". What you THINK the law is, and what the law ACTUALLY is, is two completely different things.

    I suggest you take a home study course- such as Ashworth College's Paralegal course and learn something about how it REALLY works.

    5922219683_ec1a77b8fd_z.jpg

    Now wheres your certification, Kevinkris? I just posted mine from when I was a student 10 years ago.

    Some of the legal work I've done is helped to draft Texas's Locksmithing laws- all 94 pages I was consulted on. "Lloyd G. Trail Vs. the United States Navy" which you now know as "The Superfund"- my Dad's part was about the effects of radiation from the 1950's uranium mining boom and the asbestos exposure at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard.

    I've done other work- like assisted in the groundwater study located at the Manchester Refueling Depot where the US Navy ships has dumped heavy metal contamination into Little Clam Bay- the US Navy has developed the growth of the Olympic Oyster to decontaminate the Bay.

    Now, thats a bit of my legal resume. Where's yours?

    You've said I've pulled it out of my ***. I'm saying "here's part of my resume'- time for you to put up, or shut up".

    5922219683_ec1a77b8fd_z.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2014
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  19. 3MTA3

    3MTA3 DMZ between Liberty and Tyranny Behind Enemy Lines Bronze Supporter

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    Ok, the only modification I might make to a bullet is to put a small amount of pork in a hollow point for our ROP friends. Just kidding. Maybe.

    Legalities aside, anybody have experience with any of the heavier 9mm JHP's? I'm looking mostly at rounded profiles as opposed to cone shape for feeding purposes.
     
  20. AMProducts

    AMProducts Maple Valley, WA Jerk, Ammo Manufacturer Silver Supporter

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    So of those guns, I would trust the taurus to even hold a boat in place, so +P ammo is out, I know the CZ75 and clones the barrel pin can bend when shooting +P ammo. The S&W should handle it without issue.

    Anyways, my go to has been the winchester PDX-1, few reasons: 1) Issued/Recommended by the FBI for duty use 2) the bullet jacket is bonded to the core, this prevents separation I've seen with many other bullets, this includes older winchester "personal defense", hornady XTP, Critical Defense. 3) They're cheap, and usually available at walmart. Also, they feed in literally everything I've tried it in.

    So to address the "dum-dum" bullet... yea, in the last 100+ years since the dum-dum came along, bullet technology has advanced by leaps and bounds, and we have some absolutely fantastic bullets available to use on whatever we need to use them on.

    You might also want to look at federal's "guard dog" EFMJ round... it is one of the more interesting developments to come out in the last few years, it's a conventional jacketed bullet, but it's design guarantees very high weight retention, yet excellent expansion. FYI, expansion + weight retention = energy transfer = dead bad guy If you were looking for something that had greater penetration, grizzly xtreme's all-copper bullet is not a bad choice. However, both of these options are significantly more expensive than the winchester PDX1

    [video=youtube;WA7f69skz9g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA7f69skz9g[/video]