What’s with the 9mm pcc’s and 9mm AR pistols gaining favor for serious work?

[titsonritz]

Uzi, MP5 have both seemed to work real well over the years for close quarters.

So now you make a 9mm with a 4.5 to 6 in barrel with an arm brace or SBR and you have a usable cartridge/package compared to a 7.5 barrel AR in 5.56 with a huge ball of flame from un-burnt powder to let everybody know where you are.

With good hallow points there is better expansion and less blow through compared to 5.56 taking out an innocent and it is easier to control than a handgun.

Just my opinion

The increased velocity of a rifle barrel puts 9x19 squarely in .357magnum territory. I am sure all those poor saps who use an mp5 are horribly undergunned as well. For me, the issue is distance and maneuverability. I hear people speak of 9mm as much less capable than it is. I ring steel with my carbines at 200 yards. however, if a stray bullet were to collide with my roof, given some tests I have done with my roof`s materials a 9mm would blast the roofing tile, but it does stop it, minimizing stray bullets. I used the same plywood and tile from my roof for testing purposes.

However, I am leaning towards 9mm carbines for the stray bullet factor. Given the way my home is built and angles, risk of collateral damage is low. To me living another day and not killing an innocent are my top priorities. I also highly doubt I would have 100 percent accuracy in such a case.

One of the reasons HRT, SWAT (insert acronym) teams have moved away from the MP5 & Uzi sub-guns is for less penetrate concerns of .223/5.56 when compared to 9mm. They are not using bullets M855.

 

[mortar maggot]

My 9mm PCCs are the fun guns.

When SHTF the Baloon goes up, etc. It is 5.56 or 7.62x51 for me. 9mm will be my handgun and last resort

 

[wewaits]

PCCs work that's why they exist, they worked before they became the flavor of the month. They aren't intended for hunting or for long distance work they are made for up close work, clearing rooms and for ammo commonality with sidearms. Last time I checked the venerable 9mm is still able to take down plenty of bad guys. Lever guns in 45 colt have been and are still being made for a reason. 357 Mag out of a lever gun is a whole new animal and it's already a showstopper for a handgun round. I won't hunt with a PCC just as I won't use a 270 bolt action for home defense. I question the existence of certain firearms but I don't begrudge people owning them. Just remember the Taurus Judge, Mossberg Shockwave and very short barrelled ARs have customers as well and lots of arguments can be made as to the usefulness of those or two shot derringers that weigh more than most pistols or tiny NAA Revolvers that have about a three yard range. The bottom line is if someone wants one who am I or you to say they shouldn't have one or find usefulness in them?

 

[CHLChris]

I didn't like my Ruger PCCarbine. I really wanted one, bought one, shot it, sold it. On paper it was great, but in the hand it was just too heavy IMO, especially since it kicked way more than it should have shooting 9mm out of such a heavy firearm. It just wasn't my cup of tea. My Sub2K, at 30% less weight recoiled less...and mine is a 40S&W!

 

[Wombat of Doom]

One of the reasons HRT, SWAT (insert acronym) teams have moved away from the MP5 & Uzi sub-guns is for less penetrate concerns of .223/5.56 when compared to 9mm. They are not using bullets M855.

While aware of that, in every conceivable scenario I can come up with, a 9mm will hit either my roof or the ground. My roof will stop it. Will require a tile replacement, but the wood, insulation and tile do work. I have done this test including with ball ammo using damaged and good plywood and spare insulation and tiles. I figure that definitely is useful to know.

In my case I designed a scenario that only omitted the tar paper and shot it at close range. Also, lighter handier platforms I am most competent with work well in a house with narrow twisting hallways.

I think it is a good idea to test that with your chosen defensive load. To test it against actual backstops it could face.

 

[osprey]

I want an AR-9 (and will get one at some point) for 2-3 reasons:

1. I can keep it in my car loaded if it's a pistol

2. My wife shoots my glock like a champ and I'd just rather keep a couple extra 32 round mags around that will work for my G17 and the AR-9.

3. Seems like a great clear the house gun for bump in the night in my situation.

*Bonus 4th - I don't have one yet


Agree or disagree it's all the same to me

#4 is the best reason yet to have one, you win! I have built a couple ar pistols and the wife and I had our fun with them. I have since sold one but still have one to bring to the range now and again to take some tension out of those 32 round mags that have been loaded for months. I get owning one for sure I just like other options for hd and such. Thanks for keeping it civil guys.

 

[Martini_Up]

Sometimes I need a finishing nailer, other times a sledge. Sometime I need a garden hoe, other times a backhoe.

 

[titsonritz]

While aware of that, in every conceivable scenario I can come up with, a 9mm will hit either my roof or the ground. My roof will stop it. Will require a tile replacement, but the wood, insulation and tile do work. I have done this test including with ball ammo using damaged and good plywood and spare insulation and tiles. I figure that definitely is useful to know.

In my case I designed a scenario that only omitted the tar paper and shot it at close range. Also, lighter handier platforms I am most competent with work well in a house with narrow twisting hallways.

I think it is a good idea to test that with your chosen defensive load. To test it against actual backstops it could face.

Don't forget the a layer of gyp for the ceiling.

 

[Alexx1401]

Also, ammo choice is so important here. Commercial 9mm is mostly loaded to maximize for a pistol barrel. I doubt many 9mm loads will give appreciably more in a 16" barrel.

Before you doubt you should look at the info that is easily found. Some of the good 9mm stuff in a 16inch tube is .357 velocity if you compare the .357 from a 4inch tube. The first 9mm PCC I bought long ago was as a range fun gun for Wife. When I saw that people clocked the 124+P ammo at in one I started to look at the little rifle in a whole new light. The info is easy to find from people who tested ammo by cutting an inch at a time off a barrel to show what happens.

 

[Alexx1401]

I didn't like my Ruger PCCarbine. I really wanted one, bought one, shot it, sold it. On paper it was great, but in the hand it was just too heavy IMO, especially since it kicked way more than it should have shooting 9mm out of such a heavy firearm. It just wasn't my cup of tea. My Sub2K, at 30% less weight recoiled less...and mine is a 40S&W!

I had a S2K in .40 and 9mm. The .40 was fun but damn it booted me good. Every time I would take it to the range for a couple hundred rounds I would for the next couple days feel it in my shoulder. They are so damn light they boot hell out of you. Bought the 9mm version for Wife. Even it was too much for her. When I found what the good ammo did it it I sold the .40 and kept the 9mm. Little thing still impresses me. Now the Ruger, Wife does like that. The best part of course is that they both use the same mags.

 

[osprey]

If I were to build another pc ar it would be in 10mm auto with the radial blowback system. Recoil is mitigated and now we have a round that has potential.

 

[Alexx1401]

If I were to build another pc ar it would be in 10mm auto with the radial blowback system. Recoil is mitigated and now we have a round that has potential.

The one that CMMG came out with is VERY damn impressive. I have been a big fan of PCC's all my life. Had long wished someone would make one in 10mm. Do have one now that is great but hate the Co that makes them. The one CMMG came out with is a game changer. Now you you can have a PCC that is not only great for 2 legged but good for 4 legged threats.

 

[CamoDeafie]

The next PCC I acquire, is going to be on the cheap side But in 10mm. And I will bullpup it for extra kicks

 

[Alexx1401]

The next PCC I acquire, is going to be on the cheap side But in 10mm. And I will bullpup it for extra kicks

Not that I "recommend" them but High Point makes them cheap and there was someone making a Bullpup stock for them. They have some downsides but, at the price point you can't expect to get something like the CMMG. There is some people making videos trying to destroy one that seem to have trouble making them fail.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Not that I "recommend" them but High Point makes them cheap and there was someone making a Bullpup stock for them. They have some downsides but, at the price point you can't expect to get something like the CMMG. There is some people making videos trying to destroy one that seem to have trouble making them fail.

Are there any other 10mm Bullpup rifles on the American market....?

Edit. Plenty of regular ol carbine shaped 10mm rifles and pistols out there for way more money than a basic AR15

 

[Alexx1401]

Are there any other 10mm Bullpup rifles on the American market....?

If so I have not seen it yet. The way these things are going I would think someone will come up with one though. The PCC market has really taken off the last few years. The 10mm round went from almost being dead to a main stream thing too which is great. Made price come way down and selection go way up.

 

[CamoDeafie]

I know Jard of Canada makes a pistol caliber bullpup that amazingly looks more industrial than the High Tower conversions....

JARD J68 — Jard, Inc.

The JARD J68 is our bullpup style pistol caliber carbine. It measures 26 1/4” in overall length with a 17” barrel and weighs only 7.5 lbs. (9mm model). It features an easy clam shell break open design, bottom case ejection, and accepts Glock magazines.

www.jardinc.com

But holy hell the price

 

[Alexx1401]

I know Jard of Canada makes a pistol caliber bullpup that amazingly looks more industrial than the High Tower conversions....

JARD J68 — Jard, Inc.

The JARD J68 is our bullpup style pistol caliber carbine. It measures 26 1/4” in overall length with a 17” barrel and weighs only 7.5 lbs. (9mm model). It features an easy clam shell break open design, bottom case ejection, and accepts Glock magazines.

www.jardinc.com

But holy hell the price

Does look like a nice design but certainly not cheap.

 

[Cerberus Group]

I had both a MP-5 and a UMP for years, didn't care for either. Had a Sig 550 select fire as well...sold it...too nose heavy, but still have a 551.

Anyway, if I'm going to pack a shoulder fired weapon, it needs to have more punch than a pistol caliber.

For comparable size and weight, 224/5.56 and 300BO both have way more needed punch.

 

[CamoDeafie]

If we could ever eliminate the SBR part of NFA1934; then having legal SBRs in shorter barrels would make more sense for pistol calibers