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Well I'm making the plunge. First AR-15 build. A couple questions.

Discussion in 'Rifle Discussion' started by phathom, Mar 5, 2010.

  1. phathom

    phathom Vancouver, WA Member

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    So I've finally made the first step to building my first AR-15. I've picked up a Roggio stripped lower and plan on building it with a Del-ton rifle kit. I have a couple of concerns/questions and have got a couple different answers depending on who I talk to. I have read a couple different articles about it, but I would just want to get some feedback on it for my uses.

    1: Is 1/7 twist that much better than 1/9 twist. Is it worth paying an extra $65 for a chrome lined 1/7 twist than a regular 1/9 twist.

    2: Relating to the 1st question, is chrome lining worth the extra $45, and why?

    3: M4 feed ramps on the upper, are they worth the extra $25 for them, or is it more or less just a gimmick? From what I've heard, they are good for larger (65gr+) bullets, but for majority of people, won't do much besides reducing jamming by a very small percent.

    I'm going to use my AR for mainly target shooting while moving and some longer range stuff.

    I would like to keep the cost on the build down as I still need to venture down the road of optics after the build is done.
     
  2. turq

    turq Molino,oregon Member

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    1 in 7 = 75gr bullets Target shooting; speed shooting Might be a problem.
    1 in 9 everything 62gr down

    Chrome lining tends to be somewhat less accurate, but excellent for speed shooting/harsh environment...

    I know nothing of the feed ramps or Is it worth the extra cash?
    On the build get a good pic instruction on the trigger assembly.
    Use a good set of punch pins;align...go slow..use a solid(brass)backing bar to 'buck' the bosses when possible. My build had a headspaced upper complete.
    Good Luck.
     
  3. Outrider

    Outrider Oregon Active Member

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    The deal with 1/7 twist is that it helps shooting heavier bullets. Some people shoot rounds that are heavier than 55 grain and the 1/9 twist does not stabilize the heavier rounds as well and it translates as a difference in accuracy. Whether it's worth it for you is a personal choice. The sentiment I have encountered is the 1/7 can do what 1/9 can do and more so get the 1/7.

    Yes. Chrome lining helps reduce corrosion and erosion within the barrel. Additionally, chrome lined barrels are easier to clean. Also if you leave a round chambered in a non-chrome lined barrel for an extended period of time in humid conditions, you may find an extraction problem. The difference in accuracy is something that the majority of shooters cannot notice or take advantage of.

    The AR-15/M16/M4 pattern rifles are prone to reliability issues. Every time the military does a rifle test they come in way behind the competition. They require good maintenance. Anything that makes them less prone to jam, stop, or otherwise fail is good. $25 for improved reliability is a steal. How much ammo would $25 get you? Not much.

    Good optics are expensive and the money you are talking about saving here by cutting corners is a drop in the bucket for a good optic. Doing it twice costs more than doing it right the first time.
     
  4. phathom

    phathom Vancouver, WA Member

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    Thanks for the good answers, I think I'll pay the combined $65 for the chrome lined 1/7 twist and the M4 feedramps then. Sounds like it will be worth it.
     
  5. madderg

    madderg Salem oregon Member

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    Are you going for accuracy, IE..a heavy barrel? Chrome lined barrels are not very accurate, and a good stainless lapped barrel cleans just as well. If you are going to do a lot of rapid shooting, go with a chrome lined barrel...speed shooting and accuracy are at the opposite ends of the stick. If accuracy is what your after, a 20" stainless heavy barrel of good quality will serve you well. A 1 in 7 will shoot the heaviest bullets, a 1 in 9 works well for 70 grain or less. If you plan to use lighter bullets, especially target bullets with thinner jackets the 1/7 will strip the jacket off them at the higher velocities achieved with them. Good shooting, Gary.
     
  6. 9mmD

    9mmD sw wa Member

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    It sounds like your doing the same built i did bout 6 mo ago. I splurged on the kit and got everthing except the trigger upgrade. Only put 20 rnds through it but functioned perfect. Not overly impressed with the coating of the delton but it matched my mega lower perfect and the fit was great. Plus side too is for a newb like me having the complete upper done for me so all i had to do is slap it on my lower was worth it.
    Your on the right track
    have fun
     
  7. phathom

    phathom Vancouver, WA Member

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    Thanks for the input. I'm primarily going to be shooting 55gr as that's what's more readily available here. It'll probably be a bit of a combination between quick shots at closer range of about 20-50 yards longer range sniping types of shots up to say 100-200 yards. I'm definitely not doing a heavy barrel setup though.

    I've tried piecing it together without doing the kit to try and save money, but apparently when you buy the entire rifle kit from del-ton they take off like $25.

    I've also thought about going another direction entirely with it, let me know what you think.
    What about building it as 7.62x39? It is much cheaper and more widely available for ammunition. Also building it using the conversion kit from Del-Ton as well as getting a buttstock and lower parts kit to complete it would be about the same price, if not a little cheaper. I know parts wouldn't be as readily available, but wouldn't it be a little bit more unique as well as cheaper to shoot? What would you say the potential benefits and drawbacks would be of this besides what I mentioned?
     
  8. Gunner3456

    Gunner3456 Salem Well-Known Member

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    The standard chrome moly barrel is very good and more accurate than chrome lined. The two places I'd spend extra money is on a better trigger group (Armalite two stage?) and a rear sight unless you plan on optics.

    The idea that 1:7 twist is for heavier bullets and 1:9 twist is for lighter bullets is incorrect. The 1:7 twist is for longer (higher aspect ratio) bullets and 1:9 is for shorter bullets. It just happens that in the same bullet type, a heavier bullet will be longer and thus the need for the faster twist.

    There are some 55 - 62 gr. hollow point bullets which are longer than their FMJ counterparts and they benefit from the 1:7 twist. So do the light weight but long tracer bullets. It's about cross-sectional density and aspect ratio, not weight.

    That said, if all you're shooting is FMJ or match bullets, then using weight as your guide is fine because the heavier bullets will be longer. If all I was going to use was 55gr FMJ, I'd actually try to get a 1:12 twist. That's especially true if I were going to use 5.56 instead of .223 because the muzzle velocity of the 5.56 is faster and thus the spin (rpm) of the bullet will be faster in the same twist rate barrel.

    Good luck. I've had real good luck with my Del-Ton.
     
  9. krawl

    krawl Oregon Member

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    If you want it non 223/5.56 I'd go 5.45. Either way you're paying more for mags, might as well go with the even cheaper ammo.
     
  10. Gunner3456

    Gunner3456 Salem Well-Known Member

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    +111. The 7.62x39 doesn't have the long range ability of the 5.56 or the 5.45. The 5.45 has a muzzle velocity of about 3,000 fps - faster than .223 and not quite as fast as 5.56 XM193. It's a good round.

    Might want to get a chrome lined barrel in 5.45 as the bullets are copper plated very soft steel. In several ways it's a really good round.

    I'm looking for an AK in 5.45 because the ammo is cheap and I actually have some of it.
     
  11. RallySoob

    RallySoob Salem, OR Active Member

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    mags and ammo are much easier to find in .223/5.56, thats the better route all around imo. Availability of specialty ammo is great too.

    twist and m4 ramps have pretty much been covered. Definately do M4 feed ramps but REMEMBER you need M4 feed ramped barrel extension and M4 feed ramped upper reciever to do it.

    Chrome lining is a must unless your shooting a match grade setup. Your bbl will last much longer with chrome lining so your basicaly saving yourself money down the road. Also, it will hold a tighter group longer, non-chrome lined are great until they start wearing out, then you will notice they are less accurate than chrome lined at that point.

    Also, I dont know what you plan to do about a bolt carrier group but whatever you do make sure to buy a bolt that is properly headspaced for your set up. Unless you have multiple bolts to try and 'go/no go guages' then you will want to do that part at a gun smith. I've gotten lucky before but learned a lesson on that recently...get a bolt that is headspaced for your setup. don't buy a bolt blindly.

    As far as sights go it sounds like a trijicon Accupoint 1-4x would be best for you. (BAC reticle = shoot up close with 2 eyes open like an RDS or HWS but also has zoom for longer more precise shots and is dual illuminated with tritium) If you wanna save money then just use iron sights. Nothing worse than a crap optic on a nice gun. Go all out when you buy your optics if you can. But Iron will make you a good shooter, a real shooter.

    Hbar barrel is plenty accurate and weighs less than a heavy bull bbl. If you plan on hunting at all remember walking around with a 15lb gun can get rough. Personally I like M4 contour bbl best because it's plenty accurate out to 300yds and is easy to throw around.

    A1 Stock or any solid stock for that matter is best for accuracy. M4 stock is for mobility only, and your sacrificing followup shot accuracy to run it. Magpul UBR is best of both worlds but it aint cheap...

    Lastly, use good ammo. Don't ever run a steel cased round in your AR15 if you can help it. AR's eat where they poop so eat well and clean it often
     
  12. phathom

    phathom Vancouver, WA Member

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    That is some very good input. With looking at the costs and availability of mags and ammo around here I'm readily able to get. I think I'm just going to stick with the 5.56/.223 setup. So I think from all the help and my own research I'm going to be getting a setup with a 1/9 twist, chrome lined 16" M4 barrel and extended feedramps. I'm probably going to be buying it in a complete upper that includes bolt and a detachable carry handle so everything there should align right and be headspaced right. Probably just going to run a dpms lower parts kit as I have heard wonders about them and from my experience the trigger is nice and consistent and very crisp.
     
  13. RallySoob

    RallySoob Salem, OR Active Member

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    post up a pic when you're done. Sounds like your on the right path. Good Luck
     
  14. phathom

    phathom Vancouver, WA Member

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    Any vendors you guys can recommend? So far I'm leaning on doing a rifle kit from Del-Ton. Should set me back around $600 for everything to my door for what I'm looking for. Any others that might be a little more cost effective but still quality?
     
  15. madderg

    madderg Salem oregon Member

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    Give Oly arms [Olympic arms] out of Washington a look...great people and great products at a great price.
     
  16. phathom

    phathom Vancouver, WA Member

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    I've heard a lot of mixed stuff about them, from they put out good stuff to avoid them at all costs. I also checked their site, and got this message, "Due to extreme demand for Olympic Arms products, all small parts orders (orders that are not complete guns) may take 3 to 4 months to ship."
    Since I'm not getting a complete rifle, I'm probably not going to use them. I am probably going to get some of the stuff from Bravo Company. Has anyone heard much about them? I see good reviews on their site and see lots of ads for them everywhere.
     
  17. RallySoob

    RallySoob Salem, OR Active Member

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    I've used Bravo Co for mag and other small part purchases. I like them. Good choice on Oly Arms... It's the only mfg I despise. Magpul P-mags don't even fit in their magwells... out of spec parts, etc etc. You can dig up alot of stories on them. RRA, Stag, LMT, Noveske or some other simular quality mfgs would be your best bet. RRA or Stag might be more affordable

    Just a suggestion, not sure if used parts are something you would consider but you could look around at used uppers and see if you can snag something really nice for cheap. ar15.com classifieds is a good place for that... I've seen uppers with low round count sell for alot less than retail over there. but you always take some risk when buying used ofcourse
     
  18. phathom

    phathom Vancouver, WA Member

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    UPDATE:
    Picked up the DPMS LPK and a 6 Position M4 style stock today.

    Went out to dinner with my brother in law and our families. When we got back threw everything together. Everything looks good and is very crisp. Fitted it to his upper and it fit nice, but really snug in the rear.

    Got the lower completed, now just got to scrape up some $ to get the top and finish this beast.
    Here's a pic of the progress
     
  19. phathom

    phathom Vancouver, WA Member

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    Here's an update for you. I just got everything else, minus the barrel assembly delivered and installed today.

    As it sits. Roggio Lower Reciever, DPMS Lower Parts Kit, M4 6-position Stock, Del-Ton M4 Upper, Del-Ton Bolt Assembly and charging handle, Magpul 30rd Magazine with ammo indicator, UTG carry handle.

    Still waiting on the M4 chromelined barrel with Car handguards and A2 flashhider to get here. Already have a UTG Vertical foregrip to install on it when it gets here. Taking it in to beavercreek to have them headspace it and install the barrel when it gets here.

    I colored in the lettering in red and white respectively, kind of hard to see the red though. Also the Del-Ton upper fits perfectly smooth with the Roggio lower, when I tried my brother-in-laws bushmaster upper, it was really tight, but mine fits real smooth. :)
    And a pic
    AR15_Build2.jpg
     
  20. Gunner3456

    Gunner3456 Salem Well-Known Member

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    Very nice!!

    I'd be really proud of that. :thumbup:

    I don't want to seem too nosy, so please feel free not to answer, but I'd love to know what you think it's going to cost, altogether?

    Tell me to jump in a lake if you want. :)

    Gunner