Weaver vs. Isocoles My 2 cents

[Doc In UPlace]

Most domestic gun exchanges happen within three to ten seconds. Almost certainly your opponent will be moving fast and probably within 5 yards or closer.

My main focus is on quick presentation and proper grip on my weapon, and don't even think about the names of the stances, much less which one I'm using.

To me, it's probably more of a hindrance to effective combat shooting to overthink certain aspects of technique, a distraction instead of an asset.

At the range, a kind of 'blend' is my own natural technique and I'm confident that'll go right out the window in the first half-second of reality, once somebody starts shooting at me.

 

[RBid]

This conversation requires context.

In order for it to make sense to shoot from a stance, the defender would have to be outside physical contact distance, with running not a viable option. We are talking about a situation where the only option is commitment to offense.

Within that, my choice would be to use the best way that we presently know of to rapidly get quality hits. That is ISO stance, and if we're using a semi, probably thumbs forward grip (closest alternative would be thumbs wrapped as with a revolver or some autos with huge slide locks).

This technique is used by the best in the world, whether tactical, competition, or both (ex: Frank Proctor, 15 year SF and combat veteran, tactical trainer, and USPSA Grandmaster). It is not a coincidence that they all use this.

 

[Pandaz3]

Just back from Front Sight yesterday (Long drive avoiding California) and if I recall " The only one who could do 'the Weaver Stance' correctly was Mr. Weaver, so you will have to modify it for your body" or something close to that statement was made. To me it was pretty natural. To the Warden it was new, her introductory training up here in Oregon, was done more with a modified Isosceles. She took to it especially when they added movement,

We had a great time and were able to apply for our out-of-state Nevada Concealed Carry permits.

 

[Riot]

This conversation requires context.

In order for it to make sense to shoot from a stance, the defender would have to be outside physical contact distance, with running not a viable option. We are talking about a situation where the only option is commitment to offense.

Within that, my choice would be to use the best way that we presently know of to rapidly get quality hits. That is ISO stance, and if we're using a semi, probably thumbs forward grip (closest alternative would be thumbs wrapped as with a revolver or some autos with huge slide locks).

This technique is used by the best in the world, whether tactical, competition, or both (ex: Frank Proctor, 15 year SF and combat veteran, tactical trainer, and USPSA Grandmaster). It is not a coincidence that they all use this.

There is no actual context required. In a gun fight your stance is not important...what IS important is utilizing cover correctly...even if that means laying, kneeling, squating, sitting, or doing a modified whatever stance...

Stances are made for competition, not actual engagements.

 

[Pandaz3]

Yes that was what they said at Front sight also, they just use the standing stance because they are on the range with 20 other people, but they did stress that Moving to COVER or at least concealment was much preferred as
saving your skin was what it was all about.

 

[RBid]

There is no actual context required. In a gun fight your stance is not important...what IS important is utilizing cover correctly...even if that means laying, kneeling, squating, sitting, or doing a modified whatever stance...

Stances are made for competition, not actual engagements.

Did I not specifically say in the post you quoted that it only makes sense when moving away is not an option?

 

[Riot]

Did I not specifically say in the post you quoted that it only makes sense when moving away is not an option?

Weaver Stance while clearing a hallway (danger area) and utilizing cover appropriately


Isosceles, in this instance, would overly expose you to the hallway. Agreed? I'm not saying weaver is better...I'm saying weaver is better in THIS instance...maybe even squatting with the weaver (depending on your physical ability and layout of the hallway).

 

[jutbucks13]

My 2 cents.

Use the stance you feel most comfortable in. If you're ringing steel, or punching paper your most likely going to take whatever position feels most natural and leads to the best accuracy.

Most of us will never shoot like Jerry Miculek, we have jobs, and families, and responsibilities, and no corporate sponsorship. I don't have the time or the money to change over to an Isosceles Stance on the off chance that I one day run into Jerry and don't wanna get teased.

I'm going to run whatever stance gives me the most accuracy for the way I shoot. Whatever stance gives me the greatist opportunity to physically defend myself, and put two in the chest if needed. For me that's a modified weaver, I don't care what other people call it, or what they think. If I can hit with it, I'm using it.

 

[RBid]

Weaver Stance while clearing a hallway (danger area) and utilizing cover appropriately
View attachment 104122

Isosceles, in this instance, would overly expose you to the hallway. Agreed? I'm not saying weaver is better...I'm saying weaver is better in THIS instance...maybe even squatting with the weaver (depending on your physical ability and layout of the hallway).

Wait.

Back it up AGAIN.

Have I not said TWICE, in posts that you have quoted, that shooting from a stance only really makes sense when moving away is not an option? I'm not married to the idea of planted feet at all, and have repeatedly said as much.

WHEN POSSIBLE, I prefer to maintain the thumbs forward and squared up upper body platform typically associated with ISO stance. As you'll see, this actually works very well with cover.

 

[ikemay]

I suppose what it comes down to is being comfortable, competent, safe, and able to hit what you need to with your firearm of choice in a variety of situations. The fact that all of us here have put much thought into this, means we all have a certain mind set which is also important. This is also an indication of visualization, much like athletes use. As long as we are honest about our individual capabilities, this is also a good thing.

We all all have different circumstances and needs based on an infinite number of factors that we all take into consideration. I doubt any of us here just went out, bought a firearm, put it in our pocket or strapped it to our belts and considered ourselves to be well prepared.

In my opinion, all of these things along with lively discussion is excellent!

Mike

 

[Just Jim]

Monkey see monkey do Go watch the cops train then go watch each discipline (IPSC, OLD WEST, I CORE ect) and see what works best to hit the target. Only hits count so whatever works for you.

 

[PNWHunter]

I'm an isosceles kind of guy, but that's just me. Feels better, and I shoot faster, and more accurately.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

You need to train one hand only, both sides, as well as shooting from the ground, in case you are knocked down

 

[RBid]

You need to train one hand only, both sides, as well as shooting from the ground, in case you are knocked down

Agreed.

Some context thoughts could help people prioritize how they leverage training resources. For example, if you are knocked down, it stands to reason that the attacker is very close or on top of you, so training to make even 7 yard shots while knocked over is less of a realistic pursuit than training to shoot at very close targets with one hand while on the ground. Shooting from your back is a great example of a circumstance in which understanding the basics of movement and defensive posture can provide long term benefit with minimal investment. In other words, once you have a foundation, it doesn't require a lot of work (compared to other skills) to maintain. Conversely, shooting one handed on the move is challenging, can happen at a wide variety of distances, likely is further compounded by shooting at a target that is also moving, and also requires developing skills like spacial awareness through peripheral vision. That is a skill that requires a LOT of maintenance.