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We need a place to refute anti-gun studies

Discussion in 'General Firearm Discussion' started by edison bulb, Jun 18, 2015.

  1. edison bulb

    edison bulb Portland, OR Well-Known Member

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    So let this be the thread. It isn't enough to respond here with: "Well, obviously the study is funded by Bloomberg so of course it is bull$$!". That is the height of intellectual laziness. We need a place where we can print off members mathematical analyses to these studies that are proliferating everywhere in the media and social media, and show friends, family, even repost in comments (with permission) on news articles, social media, etc.

    What we need in this thread:

    (1) People skilled in mathematics, particularly statistics, to look at individual studies and show how either the math is wrong or is cherry picked to further a particular agenda. We need someone to show -- logically -- why the particular study in question is flawed or is doubtful there is enough information to draw sweeping conclusions from.

    (2) People who are scientifically literate to understand different research methodologies, the strengths and weaknesses of each, etc. to cast enough doubt to discredit the study.

    So let's begin the intellectual battle. As new studies are pushed out by the anti-gun crowd, feel free to add the link to the actual study here. If it is behind a paywall let us know. Some of us may have researcher access to these articles.

    Here is one I think we should discuss:

    Violence Policy Center
    Firearm Justifiable Homicides and Non-Fatal Self-Defense Gun Use An Analysis of Federal Bureau of Investigation and National Crime Victimization Survey Data
    Published JUNE 2015.

    Brief summary of VPC findings: "Guns are rarely used to kill criminals or stop crimes. In 2012, across the nation there were only 259 justifiable homicides involving a private citizen using a firearm reported to the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program as detailed in its Supplementary Homicide Report (SHR). That same year, there were 8,342 criminal gun homicides tallied in the SHR. In 2012, for every justifiable homicide in the United States involving a gun, guns were used in 32 criminal homicides . And this ratio, of course, does not take into account the tens of thousands of lives ended in gun suicides or unintentional shootings that year."
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2015
    tiggers97, Koda, Dbltap and 3 others like this.
  2. salmonriverjohn

    salmonriverjohn N.W Oregon coast, Gods country Well-Known Member

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    I "2"d that! Excellent idea.
     
    Sgt Nambu likes this.
  3. decklin

    decklin WA Well-Known Member

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    It's already bring done. Nearly every gun forum has already done the research. Many have been on the news.
    We live in the Information Age. Anything you want to know is literally at your fingertips. Most of us carry a device in our pocket with abilities beyond anything we imagined only 10 years ago.
    And the public, in general, is dumber than ever.
    They refuse to listen to an opinion that differs from their's. To them we are crazy, liars, and psychopaths.
    They're not interested in the truth, only in having fun, texting, and going along with whatever they are told is popular.
     
    mjbskwim likes this.
  4. edison bulb

    edison bulb Portland, OR Well-Known Member

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    I couldn't find an analysis for the study mentioned above. This article alone has 30,000 hits in Google -- all of it anti 2A and gun.
     
  5. edison bulb

    edison bulb Portland, OR Well-Known Member

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    Please link some here. I don't see much of any real analysis on any of these studies on any gun forum.
     
  6. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    Thank you decklin,saved me some typing
    The gun lobbyists need to learn to get more hits with better tag words.This is how everybody,well the better sales people sell their goods and info they want out on the net.
    TAG WORDS
    Want to start a thread like this? Name it Bloomberg and Hillary Hate us talking ANTI GUN statistics
    Then start off with their kind of talk with more hit words and it will come up when antis look for info
    But as decklin said,the antis won't listen anyway.WE need to try to convince our friends that are fence sitters.
    Heck some kid from a news paper was let take pictures at the gun show.He had to be right about how the first amendment was more important than the second when the guy who let him in told him without the second there wouldn't be the first
    Had to argue about it though.I wouldn't have let him in.
    The agenda for the government is to take guns.The media is putting up everything they can to make us the bad guys.
     
    decklin, edison bulb and darkminstrel like this.
  7. edison bulb

    edison bulb Portland, OR Well-Known Member

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    So who is skilled with mathematics and can take a look at the VPC study in link #1?

    A major problem in this country is that most people are scientifically and mathematically illterate. So a journalist major writing for the Huffington Post, for example, regurgitates the information from the article abstract and accepts it as truth. People then parrot the information on their social media accounts, news articles, etc.

    This needs to change. We must show how each of these studies is cherry picked.

    I don't have the mathematical ability to analyze these studies but I have a friend who does. Mathematics degree, teaches math, and makes money off of math...

    Maybe I can convince her to take a look at these studies and provide an analysis.
     
    salmonriverjohn likes this.
  8. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    agree, excellent idea for a thread. but the problem is that the antis are using the same tactic they claim makes pro-gun statistics false: correlation does not equal causation. for example they say that you cant prove that more guns = less crime, but then turn around with thier own statistic like "background checks reduce crime and save lives"

    to start, everyone needs to bookmark this website: http://www.guncite.com/

    There is a lot of information in there citing sources of both pro and anti gun statistics...
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2015
    salmonriverjohn likes this.
  9. Stomper

    Stomper Oceania Rising White Is The New Brown Silver Supporter

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    1. You can't have an intellectual battle with mouth-breathing morons. (waste of time) :rolleyes:

    2. Math is hard. :D



    Seriously though, great idea for a thread because if nothing else it'll give those of us who do speak up to others about the "big picture" a better base from which to work with.
     
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  10. bakersman345

    bakersman345 Camas wa Well-Known Member

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    This can become a great thread.

    the key is to find people on the fence or the douche that wants to sound smart but knows nothing and tells all the people at work about this study.

    I'd refute this by simply pointing out the CDC study (because the CDC is typical left leaning it substantiates our claim) that says guns are used to prevent crimes upwards of 300000 times per year and that number is far greater then homicides by guns. Think about all the lives saved that dont end up with body's on a slab because of responsible gun owners and cowardly criminals. Bla bla bla.

    Most people want to sound smart, and popular. They only know as much as the single article they read. Put them in their place and they will not bring it up again. Then use this opportunity to warp the view of his audience. Before you know your coworkers will be buying a gun and asking you about the right caliber choice etc.

    As for the suicide part that's harder to change peoples minds on. I'd go with something like using a gun would be too scary, I'd rather take a bunch of pills and peacefully fall asleep, or something. people will always find away to kill themselves, it isn't the guns fault these people have become so desperate and sick etc, etc, etc

    (you might run into a well read liberal and may need further statistics or a good cop out if your not fully prepared)
     
    edison bulb likes this.
  11. edison bulb

    edison bulb Portland, OR Well-Known Member

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    This is just one excerpt, of many hundreds, referencing the study in post #1 that is being parroted in the news as the absolute truth:

    "He seems to have a point. Guns are far more likely to kill people during crimes than they are to be used in self-defense, the Washington Post reports. A new study by the Violence Policy Center found between 2008 and 2012, “guns were used in 42,419 criminal homicides and only 1,108 justifiable homicides.” Source

    Today at work 4 people in the lunchroom were talking about the S. Carolina shooting and the study above.

    C'MON MATH WIZARDS, PUT YOUR SKILLS TO USE FOR THE SECOND AMENDMENT. WE KNOW THIS BS IS CHERRY PICKED.
     
  12. GUNARCHER

    GUNARCHER Well-Known Member

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    Not all defensive gun uses result in a death
     
  13. rltrim46ford

    rltrim46ford lebanon Well-Known Member

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    Along with this concept is needed a lawyer that will take this issue forward especially here in Oregon. Oregon law was clearly violated by way of SB 941 and yet there is no oversite in place. This needs to change but unfortunately, the people that concoct these violations of the law are lawyers and law makers themselves. They make laws for us to follow while they skirt or outright violate the law. Only skilled lawyers can reverse this process and until then, we are screwed.
     
  14. pioneer461

    pioneer461 Columbia County, Oregon Active Member

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    An excellent site to debunk gun myths and gun grabbers is; http://www.gunfacts.info/ The site even has a version for the media, written slowly with large font, so they can easily understand.
     
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  15. salmonriverjohn

    salmonriverjohn N.W Oregon coast, Gods country Well-Known Member

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    I like it pioneer,, "written slowly in large print" beautiful man!
     
  16. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    Here is an article relevant to this thread debunking Bloombergs recent study showing how gun violence went down 40% in Connecticut since they implemented their permit to buy and universal background check system in 1996....

    http://reason.com/blog/2015/06/24/5-questions-about-the-new-study-purporti

    A quick takeaway from the article....
    The article lists several other points in more detail....

    Its a good read...
     
    tiggers97 likes this.