We Discuss Various Concealed Carry Firearms, how about real world calibers?

[oldcorpgunny]

I enjoy the various discussions and opinions concerning handguns, holsters, etc. , but I have a sense that some of the responses are more wishful thinking than actual real world experience. I have no idea how many of you have actually had to engage an assailant or an enemy combatant, but I think that kind of experience is far more valuable than ballistic data.
During my time as a Marine (during the war in Vietnam) and my experiences as a sheriff's deputy, I had the misfortune to see what certain calibers can do to human flesh. Then there is the consideration that if you can't hit the target, your firearm and calibers don't matter at all.
I'd like to limit the responses to handguns, because they are rarely used in military combat and are often the most available tool to law enforcement officers.
The Marines issued me a 1911A1 in .45 Cal. because that was my TO&E weapon as a Field Radio Operator. I qualified as an expert, but always felt a bit "naked" carrying one. There is no question in my mind that the .45 ACP (even the ol' round nose) is a definite man stopper. However, my issue weapon was left over from WWII and rattled! My police sidearm was the venerable S&W Model 19 in .357 Mag. Again, I was an expert shot. I once rolled up on a scene where a town marshal had shot a bank robber 6 times at point blank range and the perp had still managed to stagger outside and crawl to the curb before the loss of blood and the fact that he was dragging most of his guts behind him facilitated his death. The autopsy indicated heavy drug use which probably accounted for the delay in his death and ability to survive an amazing amount of physical damage (his personal part had been shot off and was laying in his underwear). I have seen a lot and still am quite comfortable carrying a 9MM (hollow points) or a .380 (again with hollow points.) Your thoughts?

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[Member 53328]

Good points. The human body is an amazing thing. I carry gold dot 9mm hollow points and am comfortable with that. While stationed at 29 palms we had a marine who accidentally shot his best friend while sitting across the table. Pistol was a .45. The round hit him in the face and skimmed the skull lodging between the skin and skull on the backside of the head. When the MPs showed up he was holding his teeth in his hand. A few hours later he passed but upon arrival he was able to have a conversation with the MPs. Placement is key but nothing is a guarantee. Personally I would not carry anything less than 9mm.

 

[Ura-Ki]

As a 16 year old kid, I saw a store robber take 6 rounds of .357 mag in the back, including one to the back of the skull, and that dude still managed to stagger out the front door and get into his car and drive off about six blocks before succumbing to his wounds! Here I was, a big fan of the "Mighty" .357 Magnum, and it changed my views on it! When I got my first issue sidearm, a 1911, things were great, never had any issues with it, but never had to use it for real. Mid 90's and we got issued the Beretta M-9 and deployed to Yugoslavia for that little dust up, again, didn't have to use it, but a few guys did. 9 mm NATO left a lot to be desired in performance. in 2003, I was again deployed to the sand box, this time, we were given our choice, many chose the M-9 because that's what they were most experienced with, my self included, I had the unfortunate experience of having to use my side arm, and the results were dismal, so I asked for and got a brand new M-1911! Unfortunately, I also got to use it, but it's performance left little doubt about things, those big old 230 grain baseballs hit like a Mack Truck, leaving little chance a tango would get back up after being knocked in the dust!

I have always been a 1911 guy, it was the first pistol I ever bought my self, ( back when the choices of semi auto were pretty limited) and I always felt comfortable with it tucked into my trousers.
I have also been a big fan of the 10 mm auto cartridge, but until the 1911's became available ( and tuned to be reliable) I ran a Glock G-20. That all changed when I found STI offered the parts to build the 2011 series pistols in any caliber you could want, so I got my first 2011 series in 10 mm auto, and never looked back! I really like the caliber, it is "Hotter" then most good .357 magnum loadings and fits in the semi auto length magazines, combined with the double stack frames, it's 1911 perfection, so that's what I carry daily! I found several years ago that the only really sure way to carry and be comfortable was a shoulder rig, so I began that journey, and I found that while my Ted Blocker Rig was nice and comfortable, it lacked the adjustments to change the carry angle and it lacked positive retention for a BIG and HEAVY pistol. I finally found Alien Gear Holsters makes a really outstanding shoulder rig with tons of adjustments to it, and that made carry an absolute joy. I have it set at the perfect angle, and tension, and it's retention is second to none, in fact, it's so good that NOBODY would ever be able to disarm me with out a serious struggle, and even then, that holster is absolutely locked onto the pistol and would take an incredible amount of force to be able to break the hold. I have been rockin this rig for a little over a year and a half now, and have had zero issues at all with it!
I also carry a Back up piece, not that I feel under gunned or any thing, but some times, having that little extra piece is comforting, and could change my fortunes if I ever got into a situation where I couldn't use ( Or expose) my primary piece. That Back up is ether a Para Warthawg compact double stack 9 mm, or a CZ-82 loaded with Mil Spec Czech 95 grain ammo!

 

[nammac]

Federal HST's in semi autos (.380, 9mm, 45)
Speer Gold Dot in 38 Special/357 Magnum
CorBon's in 38 Super

Tried to pick the best in breed for ammo that functioned reliably and was accurate enough…

 

[oldcorpgunny]

The history of the .45 Cal. cartridge has a long and illustrious history. The 1873 Colt revolver was chambered for it and it proved to be capable of stopping certain wildlife as well as human beings. The U.S. Army wanted it during the Moro's rebellion in the Philippines because it could stop a drug addled guerrilla and often times actually pushed him backwards. The Colt 1911 and 1911A1, Reising (sp) submachine gun, Thompson and M-3 "grease guns have all demonstrated the capability of the caliber. The cartridge in it's various forms has stood the test of time and will be with us far into the future. It's a great round.

 

[RX-79G]

All you can hope for is to poke good holes. No one has ever come up with a round that converts magnum velocities in internal shrapnel bombs, which is what it takes to make bullets more effective than they are.

Lots of people die from .22, because a hole is a hole if in the right spot, and .22 will penetrate.

So, aside from paying attention to good ballistic tests performed by people who know what they are talking about, I don't think there is much more to discuss. If a really good 9mm HP appears to leave a large cavity and penetrate deeply, it probably does - on average. Whether that 'feels' correct or not.

 

[Howard1955]

Because of my experiences living on a farm, the handgun calibers I use are .357 magnum and .45acp

I've found that 9mm just doesn't hit as hard as I sometimes need.

But - to each his own.


https://shootingthebull.net/blog/does-caliber-even-matter/

 

[RX-79G]

Because of my experiences living on a farm, the handgun calibers I use are .357 magnum and .45acp

I've found that 9mm just doesn't hit as hard as I sometimes need.

But - to each his own.





https://shootingthebull.net/blog/does-caliber-even-matter/

For shooting people with a concealed carry weapon?

 

[Howard1955]

For shooting people with a concealed carry weapon?

I do my best to avoid shooting people.

 

[RX-79G]

I do my best to avoid shooting people.

So what are you talking about in relation to the subject? I wouldn't hunt bear or squirrel with a .40, but it is a good caliber for a CCW.

 

[Howard1955]

So what are you talking about in relation to the subject? I wouldn't hunt bear or squirrel with a .40, but it is a good caliber for a CCW.

To each his own, friend.

As for me, I want the hardest-hitting round I can manage.

I once shot a squirrel with a .44 magnum. I thought it would obliterate the little thing - but it just put a clean hole through him.

The article I linked to is a good one. That fellow's research seems to indicate that caliber really doesn't matter as much as we think it does. But I'll stick with my thumpers, for the most part.

 

[Pops1911]

In the words from a character in the movie O Brother Where Art Thou? "I'm with you fellas". Love my 1911s!

 

[rjmt]

I don't carry CCW, open carry only, but my son does
S.A. 911 in .380
loaded with Buffalo Bore 90 gn hollow point +P
the 911 is so compact, one doesn't need a holster, sits in the pocket of his cargo pants easily, without banging on your leg as you walk or run
those of you from Portland will remember the Trump supporter was killed with one shot from a .380 by the Antifa anarchists

 

[Catfishmoon]

I am not sure that stopping power can simply be said to better in "caliber x" compared to "caliber y". One of the variables that comes into play is the distance the bullet travels before striking the target. How far away do you anticipate any shooting to occur at?
An example being .45acp vs .357 mag. At the distance most shots are fired at another human (close), a .230 grain bullet does a lot of damage, as you get farther away the slow moving bullet from a .45 loses velocity and does not penetrate as well as the faster moving .357. Is the shooting occurring at 10 feet, 10 yards, 25 yards, farther?
I think I would choose a .45 if my concern was humans nearby and something different if my concern was a handgun for stopping wildlife at a farther distance.
I imagine there are plenty of studies and videos, I thought one of Paul Harrel's videos did a good job of showing this variable in action.

 

[RedRover]

This is what I prefer to utilize OWB for (2-legged) SD...

12(+1) - 230gr traveling at (avg.)925 fps; expanding to almost 1", and retaining almost 100% of weight.

For IWB...

8(+1) - 147gr traveling at (avg.)985 fps; expanding to 2/3rds inch, and retaining almost 100% of weight.


For 4-legged creatures...

Locations where the threats are <300LBs:

6 - 158gr traveling at (avg.)1450 fps.


Locations where the threats are >300LBs:

6 - 340gr traveling at (avg.)1435 fps.



YMMV

 

[salmon creek gary]

Does anyone carry a .25 caliber pistol? Hope not. There's an old saying that goes something like, "If you shoot someone with a .25, they will be really pissed off if they find out about it". My single experience with someone wounded by a .25 suggests that they might not even be terribly upset about it.

It was in the mid-late 1970s when I interviewed a shooting victim (an air force NCO) on a gurney in the ER only 60 minutes from "bang". We'd already taken the .25 pistol into evidence and knew from statements that the shot happened while Sarge had been seated at a desk in his on-base quarters, and his wife had been standing there haranguing him angrily about his shortcomings as a human being. The ejected casing was in a location that made it clear; "she done it". So there I am, talking to a guy with one fresh hole between his sternum and belly button (but no residue or stippling on him or his shirt) and I can't believe I'm hearing him swear that his wife had not been holding the gun and did not shoot him. Instead, he claimed the gun just went off when he racked the slide to unload it (he was just unloading it. Yup, that's just what everyone does while getting their bubblegum chewed).

See? Not pissed off at all.

 

[Ura-Ki]

In my own experience, there is no perfect bullet or perfect caliber, bullets do strange things when hitting, having to deal with clothing, angles, distance, speed, all that, and we want a sure stop each hit, the odds ain't in our favor, so we also need to look at capasity, it will likely take more then one shot to stop a threat. Combined, ballistics gives you an approximate idea of what to expect in a perfect situation, but, it also can show you the weakness, taken with experience or a calibers known performance history, we can make a decision on which might be the best for us to carry. And finally, having made that choice, we need to test the ammo in our carry pistols to determine if it shoots well enough to serve as a carry load! I'm not going to try and sell anyone anything, everyone has their own standard of performance they judge acceptable, and that's just fine. Me, I want the most power and velocity I can get, I want to drive that bullet through heavy clothing, windshields, car doors, and such, and I want it to drive deep enough to reach vitals no matter the angle the tango is at, outside the big magnums I found the Big 10 ticks all the boxes, so that's what I carry. Problem is, good quality carry ammo is rare, if you can even find it, so your almost forced to hand load your own. I have no issue doing that, but I know others don't agree it's a good idea! With the Big 10, pushing a 200 grain soft point at just over 1300 FPS is about as good as it gets!
A 180 gr hollow point smokin along at nearly 1400 FPS is a seriously powerful load, and leaves little doubt of it's stopping power in flesh!

 

[Catfishmoon]

In my own experience, there is no perfect bullet or perfect caliber, bullets do strange things when hitting, having to deal with clothing, angles, distance, speed, all that, and we want a sure stop each hit, the odds ain't in our favor, so we also need to look at capasity, it will likely take more then one shot to stop a threat. Combined, ballistics gives you an approximate idea of what to expect in a perfect situation, but, it also can show you the weakness, taken with experience or a calibers known performance history, we can make a decision on which might be the best for us to carry. And finally, having made that choice, we need to test the ammo in our carry pistols to determine if it shoots well enough to serve as a carry load! I'm not going to try and sell anyone anything, everyone has their own standard of performance they judge acceptable, and that's just fine. Me, I want the most power and velocity I can get, I want to drive that bullet through heavy clothing, windshields, car doors, and such, and I want it to drive deep enough to reach vitals no matter the angle the tango is at, outside the big magnums I found the Big 10 ticks all the boxes, so that's what I carry. Problem is, good quality carry ammo is rare, if you can even find it, so your almost forced to hand load your own. I have no issue doing that, but I know others don't agree it's a good idea! With the Big 10, pushing a 200 grain soft point at just over 1300 FPS is about as good as it gets!
A 180 gr hollow point smokin along at nearly 1400 FPS is a seriously powerful load, and leaves little doubt of it's stopping power in flesh!

It's hard to argue against the proven performance of 10mm... Seems like a smart choice to me.

 

[rjmt]

It's hard to argue against the proven performance of 10mm... Seems like a smart choice to me.

if I need that much power, I'll use my Redhawk in .44 Mag, but it's not a CCW firearm
now for everyday open carry, I've never been let down by .357 Mag/.38+P

 

[Andy54Hawken]

28 grains of 2F black powder and a .454 round ball from a Colt 1860 Army...
Or...
20 grains of 2F black powder and a .375 round ball from a Colt 1851 Navy.
Both of which work well...and are what most folks think I carry....

In actual practice I use :
My Colt series '70 Government Model in .45ACP
With Speer Gold Dot Hollow Points , 230 grain.
'Cause this is the pistol I have the most practice with and have shot the longest.
Andy