Oregon Washington County Deputy Shoots Man Dead - Roy Rodgers Road

[Ura-Ki]

SO, How would any one stop a #6000+ pound Pickup barreling down on you, and all you have is a .40 handgun?!?!?!?
At some point things escalated beyond the norm, so W.C. had to make the call to bring out SWAT and the Armored Car in order to safely stop a potential murder from happening, and remember, this is with in rifle shot distance of a school!!!!

 

[RetiredLEO]

So what would you as a seasoned officer, suggest as an acceptable stopping point on gear and weapons ?

The whole blank check concept, of anything it takes under the premise of safety and protecting the public isn't going to wash.

I'm sure if we all walked a mile in someone's else's shoes we would have a different perspective.
Same for me as you.

The stopping point in gear and weapons is what is appropriate to the situation. The needs of a school resource officer as opposed to a SWAT officer are as different as night and day. That said both need to be prepared (gear, training, and mentally) to deal with whatever situation might arise. You only need to watch the news to understand what that could encompass. Are we all prepared and equipped all of the time, and do we all always make the best possible decision which results in the best possible outcome all of the time. Of course not, being human, but 99% of us do our very best 100% of the time. We, and especially our families make a great many sacrifices, take daily risks, and depending on our jurisdiction we do it for between $20.00 and $30.00 dollars an hour. We do it because we can, and because in our hearts we know that there is no profession more important, more honorable, nor more significant that we could dedicate our lives to. Some of us retire then miss the privilege of serving so much that we come back and start all over again.

"The whole blank check concept, of anything it takes under the premise of safety and protecting the public isn't going to wash".

With regard to the "blank check" gear and weapons that you referred to as that "...isn't going to wash", what would it take for YOU to be relatively sure that you were able to safely, effectively, and confidently deal with whatever you might be confronted with as an LEO?
That should answer your question.

 

[Doublesunder]

What is considered appropriate today might not be tomorrow. Its ever-evolving. Remember the Hollywood Heights shootout? Those officers had handguns and some shotguns and were outmatched by men with armor and rifles. It became the hallmark case-study as to why a patrol officer needed better body armor and a rifle. At least they could stand a chance until SWAT could arrive.

As far as gear, I'm not sure what difference it makes. I agree we shouldnt be wearing ACUs on patrol simply because of the concept of martial law. Some special teams wear camo, especially in heavily forested areas. Keeps you from being an easy target.

As far as other types of gear and uniforms, I believe in function and comfort over looks. Dress uniforms exist for a reason and its not for the street. Im all for outer armor carriers because they result in fewer hip injuries. Its no more crap than used to be on the belt, just in a lot more accessible and ergonomic way.

I dont see LEOs ever needed suppressive fire weapons. No SAWs, 240Gs, M2s. We have to be far more surgical due to public safety issues. We don't fight squads or platoons of bad guys. Lets hope bad guys never get that organized.

I'd like to think I'm reasonable and open. What you've posted is very reasonable and sensible.

Now if a squad of insurgents are running around in a Toyota with a 50 cal in the bed, I give the armored vehicle the green light. Until that time there needs to be a distinction between the two.

 

[nammac]

SO, How would any one stop a #6000+ pound Pickup barreling down on you, and all you have is a .40 handgun?!?!?!?
At some point things escalated beyond the norm, so W.C. had to make the call to bring out SWAT and the Armored Car in order to safely stop a potential murder from happening, and remember, this is with in rifle shot distance of a school!!!!

As the details have emerged, and the all important timeline, considering the proximity to schools, it seems as though the use of lethal force is more than justified.

So being a big boy, I admit my initial assessment was indeed incorrect...

I wasn't trying to be difficult, and for the record, I'm a big supporter of our LEO's... But as this was first reported, it just seemed that there was a single LEO contact before the escalation to the use of lethal force. Didn't understand the location or timeline.

Thoughts and prayers for the officers who had to stop the threat...

 

[No_Regerts]

I'd like to think I'm reasonable and open. What you've posted is very reasonable and sensible.

Now if a squad of insurgents are running around in a Toyota with a 50 cal in the bed, I give the armored vehicle the green light. Until that time there needs to be a distinction between the two.

Those vehicles dont have mounted machine guns or anything. They are often the safest way to get people in or out of a bad spot. It takes some authorizing to get one in the mix. Not common and most are regional rather than departmental.

Insurgencies are local and there would have to be something really...revolutionary...to cause that. History detrrmines if they are insurgents and terrorists...or our founding fathers.

 

[Kruel J]

I'd like to think I'm reasonable and open. What you've posted is very reasonable and sensible.

Now if a squad of insurgents are running around in a Toyota with a 50 cal in the bed, I give the armored vehicle the green light. Until that time there needs to be a distinction between the two.

Completely disagree. In fact, I'll go as far as saying your thought is reckless and would certainly result in a large loss of life. It shouldn't take a squad and a bed mounted .50 cal for non-armored passenger vehicles to be considered outgunned. A .223 bullet can EASILY penetrate the door or windshields of any common police cruiser.

 

[Ura-Ki]

I have yet to see any Militarization of LEO in OryGun, and I'm having trouble understanding the view points of folks that claim LEO have become militarized! Now there are counties that are so big and have so many people to protect that they have to equip with Mil surplus, but those are for the most part very rare! When things go WAY sideways, LEO have called in additional people from other depts. and other agencies, but I have yet to see any numbers of LEO equipped with Mil Spec hardware!

I have seen several counties equipped with a H-60 BlackHawk Helos, and still would not equate that with Militarization, that's just frugal spending, considering what a New Helo would cost against a lightly used 1990's era H-60, bonus is it's repurposing something that would otherwise get scrapped!!!

 

[Doublesunder]

Completely disagree. In fact, I'll go as far as saying your thought is reckless and would certainly result in a large loss of life. It shouldn't take a squad and a bed mounted .50 cal for non-armored passenger vehicles to be considered outgunned. A .223 bullet can EASILY penetrate the door or windshields of any common police cruiser.

While many have valid points on the subject
I guess, I Agree to Disagree

 

[Kruel J]

While many have valid points on the subject
I guess, I Agree to Disagree

I don't think LEO's should have to wait until they are outgunned to try and even the odds. By then, it's too late.

 

[RetiredLEO]

These guys sign up to to go fight a war against a non-military country, with no act of war declared by Congress, literally just running "missions". They get the massive adrenaline hits, the "brotherhood" mentality then come back and pick up a badge. You combine PTSD combat vets who eagerly signed up knowing they would be killing non military combatants coming back to keep us safe.
Combine this with a 1994 law congress passed allowing the military to sell at substantial discount and give away everything after deset strom from helmets to APCs, it's the literal definition of the militarization of the police. From there cops to the gear, it's already done. Its only ramping up.

If you won't stand behind us, then stand in front of us.
Semper Fi

 

[41mag]

he fired shots.

serious tactical error by any civilian in today's LEO world

 

[Kruel J]

Remember the North Hollywood shootout of 1997? Two guys with homemade body armor and AK's managed to outgun a whole police force and even the SWAT team? Police were grabbing AR-15's from a nearby gun store just to try and even the odds.

 

[Kruel J]

BTW they had to commandeer an armoured cash truck to save downed cops and civilians because they didn't have one of their own.

 

[Ura-Ki]

As society gets more dangerous, so to must LEO respond in kind. I just don't see all the hate on LEO for this, we as a society have pushed it to this level. Used to be a GumShoe carried a Smith .38 and had a pretty good chance. now days we got folks kranked up on god knows what, and a hate on Cops, and we wonder why LEO are equipped the way they are. Imagine having to strap on and carry what in the Mil. equates to a combat patrol load out, and they have to interact with azzholes every day!

 

[LuckySG]

I like very much the principle of "speak softly, and carry a big stick." This should apply to our internal policies as it is roughly the same goals that Roosevelt had with his foreign policy. The challenge is to be consistent across departments. What would make great strides in winning over the public in Lake Oswego will no be the same in Aloha or Milwaukie.

I see it as a choice: you get humans that can be rational or a race for AI to replace them. I support keeping all first responders safe.

 

[kott0n]

If you won't stand behind us, then stand in front of us.
Semper Fi

I love the military and the police. I'm very respectful to Officers who respect civilians and common sense. I have family who has served. They have a place in today's world. I just feel they aren't being used appropriately and its getting worse, not better.

 

[kott0n]

I don't think LEO's should have to wait until they are outgunned to try and even the odds. By then, it's too late.

What about using Swat teams for non violent warrants? Only one state publish their swat raid data, Utah, and not all police departments in the state participate in them. The stats are pretty clear and its skewed because its just 1 state with agencies within not participating and it still paints a picture of the majority of the raids on are on non violent offenders/offenses.

 

[Hawaiian]

He shot at the police. They should use every tool at their disposal to stop him before he kills one of them or someone else. They could not allow him to go back on the road and attack civilians.

 

[Kruel J]

I appreciate all the responses here. If you don't like the police, that's your choice. Fine. But consider 911 off limits then.

 

[Kruel J]

I love the military and the police. I'm very respectful to Officers who respect civilians and common sense. I have family who has served. They have a place in today's world. I just feel they aren't being used appropriately and its getting worse, not better.

Their job isn't getting any easier either.