Want an AR-15 Buget of $1K - What Do I Get?

[22many]

These days pretty much every AR is built to mil spec so you cant really go wrong. I have oly's, RRA's, bushys, ect ect and they all have one thing in common....they all work just fine! Unless you are sooooooo anal about your guns then I would'nt worry about the "this verses that".

Coctailer has some good deals going on for the deltron package right now. So good, in fact, that I was thinking about buying ANOTHER one......

 

[ORBrit]

Sure you can buy a low end or entry level rifle if you like but you get what you pay for. Stag, double star, olympic and others in my OPINION are garbage. Id stay with a bushmaster, colt, lewis machine, dpms etc. Id hold out for a good one. With the economy down there are a lot of people dumping good rifles are bargain prices.

Want to test your opinion out down range of my garbage SPR? (built on a Doublestar lower)

you may have heard "a lower is a lower is a lower..."

Somewhat true - there are definitely some components worth spending more money on than others.



List of machine shops that make the different brand lowers...

Cavalry Arms
* Cavalry Arms

Continental Machine Tool
* Stag
* Rock River Arms
* High Standard
* Noveske
* Century (New)
* Global Tactical
* CLE
* S&W
* MGI
* Wilson Tactical
* Grenadier Precision
* Colt

Essential Arms
* Essential Arms

LAR Manufacturing
* Anvil Arms
* LAR
* Bushmaster
* Ameetec
* DPMS
* CMMG
* Double Star
* Fulton Armory
* Gunsmoke Enterprises
* Spike's Tactical

Lewis Machine & Tool
* LMT
* Lauer
* DS Arms
* PWA
* Eagle
* Armalite
* Knights Armament
* Barrett

Mega Machine Shop
* Mega
* GSE
* Dalphon
* Gunsmoke Enterprises
* POF
* Alexander Arms

Olympic
* Olympic
* SGW
* Tromix
* Palmetto
* Dalphon
* Frankford
* Century (Old)

Sabre Defense
* Sabre Defense

Sun Devil
* Sun Devil forged billet receivers

Superior
* Superior Arms

 

[Trlsmn]

Want to test your opinion out down range of my garbage SPR? (built on a Doublestar lower)

you may have heard "a lower is a lower is a lower..."

Somewhat true - there are definitely some components worth spending more money on than others.



List of machine shops that make the different brand lowers...

Cavalry Arms
* Cavalry Arms

Continental Machine Tool
* Stag
* Rock River Arms
* High Standard
* Noveske
* Century (New)
* Global Tactical
* CLE
* S&W
* MGI
* Wilson Tactical
* Grenadier Precision
* Colt

Essential Arms
* Essential Arms

LAR Manufacturing
* Anvil Arms
* LAR
* Bushmaster
* Ameetec
* DPMS
* CMMG
* Double Star
* Fulton Armory
* Gunsmoke Enterprises
* Spike's Tactical

Lewis Machine & Tool
* LMT
* Lauer
* DS Arms
* PWA
* Eagle
* Armalite
* Knights Armament
* Barrett

Mega Machine Shop
* Mega
* GSE
* Dalphon
* Gunsmoke Enterprises
* POF
* Alexander Arms

Olympic
* Olympic
* SGW
* Tromix
* Palmetto
* Dalphon
* Frankford
* Century (Old)

Sabre Defense
* Sabre Defense

Sun Devil
* Sun Devil forged billet receivers

Superior
* Superior Arms

Thanks I have wanted that list for some time!

I might also point out that Noveske AR10 lowers come off the same production line as Armalite AR10 lowers thought the Noveske Aryan roll mark seems to make them more accurate and worth $300 more than the Armalite.

 

[gunnoob75]

These days pretty much every AR is built to mil spec so you cant really go wrong.

No they're not. Oly, DPMS, RRA, etc etc all have Commercial, NOT mil-spec, buffer tubes.

They also all use semi-auto Bolt Carriers, instead of the perfectly legal and correct Full auto carrier. The Semi auto has a chunk cut out of the bottom, making the carrier lighter. This DOES make a difference.

They also use 1/9 twist barrels, and chrome lining is optional. Again, not milspec. "Milspec" would be 1/7 twist, chrome-lined.

 

[Selftest]

I honestly love this forum, guys and gals, but the misinformation on here is sort of disheartening at times.

First: Mil-spec is NOT mil spec is NOT mil-spec. There are very few AR manufactures that build to exact military standards. I believe, and I could be wrong, that Colt, BCM, and LMT are the only three. I may be wrong, but I know Colt and BCM are.

Second: If your rifle is ever going to potentially be used for saving your life, "any old AR will do" is just not true.

Third: Plinking is plinking, paper punching is fun, and shooting cans is good times. But if you train with your weapons, if you put a thousand rounds down range in a couple days, if you dive, and slide, and slam your rifle against the ground, and barricades, all while shooting and moving--- Why would you NOT want the best? The failure rate of the "lower" quality AR in this environment is farabove those of quality brands.

Fourth: An AR lower, for the most part, is an AR lower. Fit and finish should be your only concerns, and black is, for the most part, black. Forged billet receivers will, of course, cost you more.

Fifth: Popular does NOT always equal BETTER. We all know DPMS, Bushmaster, and RRA because they are POPULAR. So is Colt, but I very rarely see Colt recommended as a first rifle. Why? Because Colt is a premium brand, and therefore have a premium price tag. (it can be argued that anything with a Prancing Pony rollmark will instantly bump a sticker 20%, but I digress.) DPMS, Bushmaster, Olympic etc. are priced as such because they are made by the thousands, are found nearly everywhere, and are easy to be had. It's a never-ending cycle.

Sixth: Why does the rifle take such a backseat to handguns in quality arms? Most people here would never willingly buy a Jennings, or a Star, or a Hi-Point. Not for defensive use, at least. Yet every day I see "Buy a Bushy/DPMS/Olympic." The misinformation is just crazy.

Seventh: You pay a premium for Noveske because the barrels are top notch, they are hand assembled, and customer service is top notch. They are also usually only available in very limited runs, and therefore demand a limited price. If you think the price on a Noveske hurts, take a look at a Knights Armamament. Also, the "Aryan rollmark" comment is just inflammatory.


You guys and gals interested in the AR-15/M4 platform should really go spend some time on http://www.m4carbine.net. Prepare to have your eyes opened. Some of these guys have been shooting the AR/M4 platform for years upon years, and not just at paper. I trust their advice. They are brutally honest and will tell you when something is B.S. Upon first look, it seems as if everyone is drinking someones Kool-Aid, but this is for a reason; Proven reliability is contagious. As said, some of these guys shoot at people for a living. Some of them just shoot for a living, and others have so many rounds downrange, through so many different firearms, in so many different classes... And they all have ONE thing in common: Tough, reliable firearms.

 

[gunnoob75]

I knew guys over seas with Bushmasters. A whole team, even.

Never heard any issues.

 

[22many]

No they're not. Oly, DPMS, RRA, etc etc all have Commercial, NOT mil-spec, buffer tubes.

They also all use semi-auto Bolt Carriers, instead of the perfectly legal and correct Full auto carrier. The Semi auto has a chunk cut out of the bottom, making the carrier lighter. This DOES make a difference.

They also use 1/9 twist barrels, and chrome lining is optional. Again, not milspec. "Milspec" would be 1/7 twist, chrome-lined.

As I stated in my earlier post, "unless your anal about your guns".

 

[Trlsmn]

No they're not. Oly, DPMS, RRA, etc etc all have Commercial, NOT mil-spec, buffer tubes.

They also all use semi-auto Bolt Carriers, instead of the perfectly legal and correct Full auto carrier. The Semi auto has a chunk cut out of the bottom, making the carrier lighter. This DOES make a difference.

They also use 1/9 twist barrels, and chrome lining is optional. Again, not milspec. "Milspec" would be 1/7 twist, chrome-lined.

Just to clear up some partial misinformation a full auto bolt carrier is illegal in Washington. That isn't something we need to worry about in Oregon but since there are many Washington members here I don't want to see them get into trouble.

 

[Trlsmn]

Seventh: You pay a premium for Noveske because the barrels are top notch, they are hand assembled, and customer service is top notch. They are also usually only available in very limited runs, and therefore demand a limited price. If you think the price on a Noveske hurts, take a look at a Knights Armamament. Also, the "Aryan rollmark" comment is just inflammatory.

Sure as it was meant to be!

Noveske:

 

[Selftest]

First: Are we in the habit of promoting myths on this forum? A full auto BCG is NOT illegal in the state of Washington! All a full auto BCG entails is a slightly heavier and sturdy BCG. That is it, end of story. A full auto BCG is more reliable than a commercial BCG, end of story. I just personally bought an AR with a full auto BCG, and I live in the state of washington. All Colt ARs come with full auto BCGs, and I can go buy one of 500 at Kesselrings right now.


Second: The "Iron cross" Symbol is not Aryan related, and neither is the swastika, in its true form. Trismn, the first symbol you have posted is registered to a company called Independent Trucks. They make, of all things, skateboard parts. The "Iron Cross" or "Maltese Cross" is also featured on medals issued to our troops, in case you have forgotten. Just because Nazi Germany adopts something does not automatically make it only Aryan/White Power/Nazi related. And, furthermore, the KKK adopted Nazi ideology and symbols AFTER WWII.

Furthermore, Noveske sounds Germanic to me, and if that is the only reason a styleized Iron Cross is used, it's good for me.

If we're going to continue to make mountains out of molehills...

I knew guys over seas with Bushmasters. A whole team, even.

Never heard any issues.

While this may be the case, do you know the history of these firearms? Was it a military unit? Military uses Colt for the M16/M4. Were they just Bushmaster lowers? As has been pointed out, a lower is pretty much a lower. I would have no qualms putting a KAC, Noveske, LMT, Colt upper on a Bushmaster/Oly/DPMS/Stag/RRA lower if the monetary savings were important enough. Do we know the intimate details of these bushmasters? Were they Bushmaster upper/lower receivers with Noveske/Colt barrels and internals? Do we really know? No. They also very well could have been bone stock Bushmasters.


All I'm saying, and all I have been saying in every AR thread I run across on this board, is Learn the FACTS, not popular opinion. Popular opinion means nothing. If we all followed the popular opinion, then we would have all voted Obama, melted down our firearms, banned the sale of ammo, and torched our cars/trucks by now.

I'm not trying to defecate in anyone's cereal here, but internet message boards are our new library. This is where we come to make informed opinions, and gain knowledge about things. If the people considered knowledgeable have the wrong facts, where does that leave the people who look to them for information?

If we cannot qualify or quantify our information, we have to accept that we may be wrong. I, personally, base my information on men and women who have real life, practical knowledge of the info I am seeking. When it comes to firearms, I go to 1911forum for 1911s, Sigforum for Sig Sauer info, Glocktalk for Glocks, etc etc. For AR/M4 platforms, I go to m4carbine, as it is the most knowledgeable place I, and many others, have found. I come here because it is local. I can learn about gun shows, stores, ranges, meets, local prices, etc. But it saddens me on a personal level to know that misinformation is posted here. A lot of the time.

Scenario: Guy/Gal comes on here looking for advice on an AR. He/She is pointed in the direction of a <insert brand here>r. He/she buys it, puts 200 rounds through it, and it sits in the closet/safe. 2 months later, another guy/gal comes here looking for advice on an AR. The guy/gal that bought the <insert brand here> says "I bought mine a few months ago and put a ton of rounds through it. Flawless!"

Fast forward a month. The new guy/gal goes to a carbine class. Up until now, he/she has fired a few mags through his/her AR, and has had no problems. So, he/she buys 1k rounds of ammo, pays $500 for a class, drives 100 miles and stays in a hotel for three days for the class. First day, doing Carbine drills, <insert part here> breaks. No problem, it happens. Someone has a spare, he/she moves on. Throughout the next two days, the gun is down more than it is up. He/she is pissed off, upset, sad, and out $1000, and didn't take any new skills home with himself/herself because they spent most of the time qith a non-functioning firearm.

He/she comes on this forum and tells the story. He/she says "Stay away from <insert brand here>!" 20 people who have fired 200 flawless rounds through the same brand AR jump down his/her throat because their AR is "Perfect! Have had no issues and have had it for 10 years. ****, I know 10 guys that bought the first 10 off the lot, and they function flawlessly."

You see the issue?

 

[gunnoob75]

As I stated in my earlier post, "unless your anal about your guns".

This may be true. But no, most ar's are NOT mil-spec. Weather you care about the differences or not is your own problem.

They are not "MilSpec". As in, they would NEVER be approved by the united states military.

Which means-

These days pretty much every AR is built to mil spec so you cant really go wrong.

-Is completely incorrect.


Further, you are correct. Bushmaster, Rock River, etc. They all work just great. For most people.

But may day to day job means putting thousands of rounds down range. Your Oly Arms, for instance, would be the first gun down.

 

[gunnoob75]

While this may be the case, do you know the history of these firearms?

Yes, I do. I don't, however, wish to share my profession with an oh-so politically charged forum.

They were basically bone stock Bushmasters. Semi-auto carrier and all. Some of the barrels though, were not. As well as rail systems.

I would personally never take a Bushmaster over seas. If I were to get separated from my team, that rifle needs to be able to hold out as long as it can. Days, weeks, maybe even months. Some civilian PSD team or something could probably field them just fine, though.


Is any part of the rest of your post directed towards me?

 

[isher]

Can't resist introducing the redhaired stepchild here,

IMHO the pick of the litter.............

Better than either the AR or the AK platforms.

Why?

Lighter.

More reliable.

Better ergos.

More accurate.

Made by the Czechs since 1958;

7.62x39.

And...........

$850 brand fresh new from CZ USA.

The CZ VZ58 carbine.

Which means you an buy at least a case of ammo within your original budget.

 

[Trlsmn]

Can't resist introducing the redhaired stepchild here,

IMHO the pick of the litter.............

Better than either the AR or the AK platforms.

Why?

Lighter.

More reliable.

Better ergos.

More accurate.

Made by the Czechs since 1958;

7.62x39.

And...........

$850 brand fresh new from CZ USA.

The CZ VZ58 carbine.

Which means you an buy at least a case of ammo within your original budget.

Or buy one here for $499 or as low as $459 http://www.classicarms.us And yes I want one! And no they aren't in anyway an AK!

Group buy on 5?

BASED ON THE FAMOUS CZECH SA VZ-58 MILITARY RIFLE , THIS FINE 7.62X39 SEMI-AUTO RIFLE IS IN A CLASS BY ITSELF. FEATURES A PUSH BUTTON STOCK RELEASE 2 - 30 RD MAGS AND A .45 DEGREE COMP. ACCESSORIES MAY VARY SLIGHTLY IN STYLE FROM THOSE PICTURED BUT EACH RIFLE COMES WITH ALL OF THE ACCESSORIES YOU SEE HERE. ITEM #

IS VZ-58/2008...........$499.95
BUY 2 RIFLES AT ....... $489.95 EACH
BUY 3 RIFLES AT ........$479.95 EACH
BUY 5 OR MORE RIFLES AT .........$459.95 EACH

 

[isher]

Trismn -

They are selling the Century brand.

If I absolutely had to do it, I

Might use a Century VZ for a chock

Under one of the rear tires of my truck

On a steep hill when loading cordwood.

And even then I wouldn't trust it.

Come to think of it, a chunk of cordwood would be better.

Sabe?

D-Technik, which is what CZ USA sells,

Is the real deal.


isher

 

[Trlsmn]

Trismn -

They are selling the Century brand.

If I absolutely had to do it, I

Might use a Century VZ for a chock

Under one of the rear tires of my truck

On a steep hill when loading cordwood.

And even then I wouldn't trust it.

Come to think of it, a chunk of cordwood would be better.

Sabe?

D-Technik, which is what CZ USA sells,

Is the real deal.


isher

Yah I know A demilled VZ 58 on an ORF receiver assembled by monkeys, but hey for the price I still might buy one anyway. I am working on my 07 SOT and I want to post sample one!

 

[Mac_Fan]

You should be able to get a nice Bushmaster for that price. If you have 1k now, I would recommend wait that you wait and save up another $200.00 and get a Colt 6920.

 

[isher]

For those of you who might be slightly mystified

About this, here is a mighty nice comparison

Between the AK and the VZ.

I have found nothing equivalent for the AR and the VZ.

http://50ae.net/VZ-vs-AK/

isher

 

[Trlsmn]

For those of you who might be slightly mystified

About this, here is a mighty nice comparison

Between the AK and the VZ.

I have found nothing equivalent for the AR and the VZ.

http://50ae.net/VZ-vs-AK/

isher

I've always been fond of Czech firearms.

 

[22many]

This may be true. But no, most ar's are NOT mil-spec. Weather you care about the differences or not is your own problem.

They are not "MilSpec". As in, they would NEVER be approved by the united states military.

Which means-

-Is completely incorrect.


Further, you are correct. Bushmaster, Rock River, etc. They all work just great. For most people.

But may day to day job means putting thousands of rounds down range. Your Oly Arms, for instance, would be the first gun down.

WOW wakejoe. You must be the AR god because you shoot AR's every day. Do you even know what "milspec" means?
As far as oly rifles, I still have a preban that is functioning perfectly with the only problem in the last 25 years of owning it is a broken extractor spring. So my "first gun down" must be a big POS in your book huh?