WA gun sting brings guilty pleas

[Misterbill]

Yeah about that "treating them like second class citizens" BS

If you wouldn't have robbed the bank or whatever,that put you in prison,in the first place,we wouldn't be "treating you like a second class citizen" now would we?

You can go get your felony expunged.If you didn't do something real bad/violent,then you should be able to get it changed. So felons can own guns afterwards.

Once again you are making the ignorant (as in lack of knowledge) and incorrect assumption that all, or even the majority of "felons" have committed crimes of violence. The vast majority of felons have not.

Right now we have about 70% of our prison population, which is the largest in the entire world by the way, in prison for crimes involving drugs without violence. (In the federal system it's about 96% for non-violent cirmes!)

We have made crimes form things that harm no one, like prostitution, drug use and growing plants the government doesn't like. That's not to mention the myriad laws such as having a gun that's not registered in many states, or having a magazine with 11 round capacity in Mass, NY, Ill, and other places owning an eagle feather, etc.

The way the laws are currently written, most people in this country are felons. They have merely been lucky or smart enough not to get caught. you've never made ANY less than 100% accurate statement on ANY government form? Never imbibed ANY regulated or banned substance in violation of law? NEVER taken your wife's prescription muscle relaxant when you wrenched your back? NEVER possessed any drug? And that's the tip of the iceberg.

We are charging teenagers with sex crimes (and getting convictions, placing them on the sex-offender registry) for the terrible crime of possessing the picture their girlfriend (who is the same age) took OF HERSELF and sent to them (child porn).

Meanwhile, we have actual very serious crimes like drive-by shootings where the defendant routinely gets only 2-4 years while we nail people for possession of drugs for 15 year mandatory minimum sentences. I see it in my local paper on a regular basis.

I have no issues whatever with keeping dangerous people ion prison for a VERY long time. If you commit a crime of serious violence like armed or strong-arm robbery, the sentencing should START at you're not getting out for ten years and go up from there depending on circumstances and your background.

I am adamantly opposed to parole, or the excuse for it, which Washington State has. (Probation given as a part of the sentence, meaning that you're out in a fraction of your sentenced time but still serving a sentence).

If there is an actual crime, with an actual victim, you'll find no one tougher than me on sentencing. And three strikes as it's applied in WA is a good idea.

But the majority of people we label as felons have never hurt a soul. they may or may not have victimized someone and the punishment for that crime should be appropriate to the harm. -Sentencing someone to 10 years for having a plabnt the government doesn't approve of is a waste of time and money, someone who robs your house should be looking at years in jail.

Maybe if we stopped labeling everything that annoys some jackass as a felony and stuck to crimes with actual victims and actual harm we would be able to keep bad guys in jail. At which point who cares if they can legally buy a gun?

You guys are making a brady-bunch type argument. Guns are so inherently dangerous that people must be prevented from having them except for an increasingly small number of people who meet strict government controls.
As though a law saying you can't sell a gun to felons keeps felons from getting guns in the first place! Let them have them! If they commit a crime with them hammer them into oblivion. the whole notion of maulm prohibitum is a logical fallacy for the most part.

 

[MikeSettles]

I agree with David Codrea: If someone can't be trusted with a gun, they should be locked up, or have an appointed custodian.

 

[JGRuby]

Misterbill - I do not agree with your position - and though I was going to write a much different email - I will respond with this. Prostitution, illegal gun activities, child pornography, drunk driving and illicit use of drugs are not victimless crimes and certianly not something that I feel should go unpunished. If you commit these crimes by todays laws you are a felon by nature of the crime if you are proven guilty. These people should not have fire arms as they gave that right away when they commited those crimes. This has nothing to do with the Brady bunch but these are the laws that exist in the society that we live in and interact. We all have done wrong in the past and fortunately we got away with it but I would argue that in most cases we knew we were doing something wrong to our benefit. I have never seen a person become a felon from taking one vallium or vicadin. In short if you dont like the laws then we have the right to try and change them or we can leave.

James Ruby

 

[Partsproduction]

One factor that some of us forget, but which has historically been proven over and over. Try as hard as we may the fact is that innocent people get locked up! Sometimes for life, and many have been proven innocent right before the needle injection. Trust a felon? How about should we trust a judicial system that is also made up of flawed human beings? Not everyone who is released from prison ever belonged in one in the first place, any more than the rest of us anyway. Should those people ever get their rights back? If a man steals money at age 20 and goes to jail should he have to pay it back for the rest of my life if he learned his lesson? That's an idiotic notion.
I'd like to think that people can get past the mistakes of their youth, and see no reason to force a man's face into the mud for the rest of his life.

Just for the record, I've never been to prison, but I know many people who acted foolishly in their youth and regret it, never to do those things again, it's called growing up, some never do.

I also know a perfect man who is rather famous for forgiving people, he said those who cannot forgive cannot be forgiven.

 

[JGRuby]

When a better solution is thought of we ( society ) will look at implmenting it - and yes if a person steals money at age 20 he has committed a crime as an adult and there fore is a convicted criminal for life. I do not consider it an idiotic notion - I consider it right and just. No one made that man commit that crime - he comitted it on his own and now is responsible for the consequences of his actions. To me this is the problem with society today -" its too hard, its too difficult, its too something that makes it uncomfortable for me to complete, finish or work on it". I am tired of society making excuses for poor behavior. Own up to it and let the cards fall where they lay. Each person has one life if they choose to waste it - that person is to blame. There are many choices choose wisely - stupidity costs.


James Ruby

P.S> this has nothing to do with Christianity or religion in my opinion. I support seperation of church and state and that goes for our laws. Ask forgiveness from god because you wont find any here.

 

[MikeSettles]

When a better solution is thought of we ( society ) will look at implmenting it - and yes if a person steals money at age 20 he has committed a crime as an adult and there fore is a convicted criminal for life. I do not consider it an idiotic notion - I consider it right and just. No one made that man commit that crime - he comitted it on his own and now is responsible for the consequences of his actions. To me this is the problem with society today -" its too hard, its too difficult, its too something that makes it uncomfortable for me to complete, finish or work on it". I am tired of society making excuses for poor behavior. Own up to it and let the cards fall where they lay. Each person has one life if they choose to waste it - that person is to blame. There are many choices choose wisely - stupidity costs.


James Ruby

P.S> this has nothing to do with Christianity or religion in my opinion. I support seperation of church and state and that goes for our laws. Ask forgiveness from god because you wont find any here.

Mr Ruby, then the logical end to your argument is to just kill 'em all for whatever crime, because none of them can ever be trusted to be competent members of society. Your answer is too easy.

Should Martha Stewart have a gun? (Felony purgery for lying to prosecutors about "insider trading". Served her time.)

 

[Misterbill]

Misterbill - I do not agree with your position - and though I was going to write a much different email - I will respond with this. Prostitution, illegal gun activities, child pornography, drunk driving and illicit use of drugs are not victimless crimes and certianly not something that I feel should go unpunished. If you commit these crimes by todays laws you are a felon by nature of the crime if you are proven guilty. These people should not have fire arms as they gave that right away when they commited those crimes. This has nothing to do with the Brady bunch but these are the laws that exist in the society that we live in and interact. We all have done wrong in the past and fortunately we got away with it but I would argue that in most cases we knew we were doing something wrong to our benefit. I have never seen a person become a felon from taking one vallium or vicadin. In short if you dont like the laws then we have the right to try and change them or we can leave.

James Ruby

Your neighbor likes to smoke pot. He grows a plant in his yard and smokes it once in a while in the evenings. How again is this hurting anyone at all?

Your 17 year-old son receives a picture from his 17 girlfriend with her top off that she sends him on a lark. Who has been harmed?

A 25 year-old woman is unemployed, good looking and really needs some money. she puts an ad up on craig's list and starts turning tricks at $500 a pop. Her money problems are solved and she's not on welfare. Who again has been harmed?

These are all real examples of what real people do and have done. They have harmed no one at all. And yet they are all felonies.

It's one thing to sell crank to the middle-school kids form your van. It's another altogether to smoke a joint in your home. One produces direct harm to innocents, the other does not.

It's one thing to take pictures of naked children and sell them on the internet. It's another thing altogether for a girl or boy to take a snap-shot of themselves nekkid and send it to their boyfriend/girlfriend. One produces harm, the other does not.

If you can't tell the difference between these things you are incapable of rational thought. They are clearly, OBVIOUSLY vastly different things. But we treat them as EXACTLY the same thing and label people who've never harmed a soul as evil criminals.

I will bet you a lot of money that if I looked into your life and past hard enough, I could find a felony you could have been charged with. Just because you got lucky doesn't mean you're morally superior.

We've gone so insane on "get-tough on crime" that we've criminalized half the population. And claiming that somehow the kid who sends her boyfriend a nekkid picture of herself needs to be permanently disarmed and put on a sex offender registry (which is documented fact, it's happened quite a few times now) is ludicrous. What are you using for a moral compass?

If you said people convicted of a serious violent felony should be disarmed I can at least see the logic. Disarming non-violent people who have never harmed a soul, taking away a fundamental human right like self defense long AFTER they have served their sentence produces no possible public good. It just gives the state yet another tool to put the hammer on people.

I have been working in various functions with law enforcement for a couple of decades now. I am not making these things up. People who haven't hurt a soul get charged and convicted of felonies every day. If you don't believe that, you aren't paying attention. I have the cops and prosecutors stories by the dozen where they felt for whatever reason, they were forced to put someone through the system they knew shouldn't have been there. At best they "get to" plead to a lesser felony or other permanently disqualifying offense.

When you make everything a crime, everyone's a criminal. And we're rapidly approaching that point. That's not a free country, it's a police state.

 

[Partsproduction]

I can see that it's a waste of time talking about this. Every one is guilty, we all know we aren't perfect,and the ones who can't forgive are the saddest of all.

 

[mjbskwim]

Whoa whoa whoa there negro, YOU are ASSuming something and it's not the question of my ignorance.

Don't put words in my mouth or say something out of IGNORANCE that makes you look IGNORANT
(sorry if I ruffled you felonious ***)

I simply said,if you hadn't done the crime,you wouldn't have done the time.
(Ya know,this is second hand talk,because I HAVE NEVER BEEN A FELON)
So if you have done a crime and have MADE YOUR SELF (you did this to yourself,you did this,not someone else YOU) a felon,then you must take the repercussions of your actions

I will go back and read your post now.The first part made it sound like YOU WERE A FELON and this was a bad topic


Sorry

 

[JGRuby]

I feel that this is why we have the problems we have today - we are too soft - you cut out the cancer in society and that is the violent felons and repeat offender / felons. If you think that because I dont forgive those that kill and maim and live off from others vulnerabilities I am the saddest of all - then I will accept that and wish that none of those come your way looking for trouble because while you are trying to convince them to be rightous people they may be taking your last moments so that they can take what you have to pay for a good time.

I am not that generous and forgiving and learned at a very early age in life that there are alot of bad people out there and those bad people really dont give a c5ap whether you are around or not. Yes I beleive in the death penalty, I believe that many people are not felons because the cost is too high such as losing ones percieved rights, and for those that feel that committing crimes is easier work than a job I beleive in removing them from society. And yes I am a self proclaimed liberal.


James Ruby

 

[MikeSettles]

Mr. Ruby,
I too believe in the death penalty. I believe in taking out violent predators, either at the point of the crime or via the hangman's noose. (Yes, I would bring back public hanging.)
I also believe that many people commit felonies who NEVER knew that they were doing something so evil. It has been too easy for a legislative body to declare this or that action to rise to the level of "felonious". Felony standards are also different in different jurisdictions. Suppose you were convicted of a felony in, for instance, Oklahoma, then moved to the Northwest where the same action would have been a low-order misdemeanor - or not even a crime?
I also believe that once one has "paid their debt to society", the punishment should end there, at that moment.
Anything else, and we might as well kill 'em all, no matter the nature of their crime, 'cause they're all BAD. (Your logic.)

Anyway: Thanks for the debate. Maybe we can get folks to thinkin'?

 

[Misterbill]

I feel that this is why we have the problems we have today - we are too soft - you cut out the cancer in society and that is the violent felons and repeat offender / felons. If you think that because I dont forgive those that kill and maim and live off from others vulnerabilities I am the saddest of all - then I will accept that and wish that none of those come your way looking for trouble because while you are trying to convince them to be rightous people they may be taking your last moments so that they can take what you have to pay for a good time.

I am not that generous and forgiving and learned at a very early age in life that there are alot of bad people out there and those bad people really dont give a c5ap whether you are around or not. Yes I beleive in the death penalty, I believe that many people are not felons because the cost is too high such as losing ones percieved rights, and for those that feel that committing crimes is easier work than a job I beleive in removing them from society. And yes I am a self proclaimed liberal.


James Ruby

But we aren't talking about violent predators.

If the conversation was about how violent offenders are prohibited from buying a firearm, I wouldn't have commented. But the fact is that we AREN'T talking about violent predators.

Violent criminals make up a small fraction of our prison population and post-offender/felon population. That's a fact.

The vast majority of the folks affected with loss of the most fundamental human right of them all: self-defense. Have harmed with er no one, or done so in minor ways that have long since been paid for.

I've been working in this area for a very long time. There are lots of folks I've met in prisons who need to be there. And not a few I would just as soon have hung. But there are countless people in and out of jail who are not a threat to anyone, who never have been and never will be.

We have made so many things serious crimes that the actual serious crimes, things we would both agree deserve a very long prison sentence or death, get virtual slaps on the wrist because we're so busy with the people that have hurt no one at all.

The fact is that we actually have a very low violent crime rate outside a very few, isolated urban areas. It's lower than England, France, and many other countries and a fraction of what it is in south American countries.

But that fact doesn't sell newspapers and doesn't build more prisons and hence hire more cops and prison guards. There's a reason why 50% of the American people think pot should be legalized at the very same point that the federal government is cracking down on medical marijuana: The lobbies scare the crap out of the sheep that the end of the world will occur if we let people smoke pot. And politicians are scared witless that they will be labeled as "soft on crime."

Before another single law is passed we need a constitutional amendment: For every law passed three need to be repealed. We could start with laws that require church attendance (yes, they are still on the books in New England) and work from there.

Criminal activity should involve a victim and damage to another person. If those things are missing, I fail to see the crime. -Much less the need to permanently take away a fundamental human right.

 

[Riot]

To me it sounds like the people that think felons should have guns are the felons themselves - to them I say too bad. Should not have screwed up in the first place.

James

lol

I had that same thought but thought I'd be alone on that boat and decided not to post it.

Empathy vs. Sympathy...one of them is for suckers. If you don't know which is which then you're the sucker.

 

[Scott]

Recognize the fact that if they want a gun, they will get a gun. Some will do it so that they can re-offend; others just so that they can defend themselves: As second-class citizens, they know that they are set up to be prey for the predators. "Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six!"
Besides, you are (as 1986 GCA does) lumping ALL "felons" together: See MisterBills' comment above.

Yes I am lumping all felons together because they are felons. Follow the rules and you will not have that problem. Plus it is sort of hard to be a felon because the jails are overfilled and most DA's would rather pleade than go to court which means mostly misdemeaners.

Society labels them that way. The same as welfare people, drug addicts, mentally ill, murderers, rapists and the list goes on.

But you choose to kill, rob, rape, murder you should not ever get to have a gun legally or vote. They made a choice to do a crime. Its simple just follow the laws and you won't be a felon. We should follow other countries methods to curb a lot of this violence.

But you can call felons first class citizens if you choose, I just disagree. Thats how we perceive law breakers.

 

[evltwn]

So, walk the walk and invite "rehabbed" ex-felons into your home. They can help with the babysitting and perhaps keep your wife company while you are working late. Look how good you will feel about yourself. Missing in the majority of this thread is any mention of concern for victims of felons...lets ask them what they think, since they, and not us bloviating opinionators, are the ones who have suffered.

Obey the law. Pretty simple, don't ya think? If you don't break the law, you have no need to look over your shoulder.

 

[dmancornell]

So, walk the walk and invite "rehabbed" ex-felons into your home. They can help with the babysitting and perhaps keep your wife company while you are working late. Look how good you will feel about yourself. Missing in the majority of this thread is any mention of concern for victims of felons...lets ask them what they think, since they, and not us bloviating opinionators, are the ones who have suffered.

Obey the law. Pretty simple, don't ya think? If you don't break the law, you have no need to look over your shoulder.

I'd say a majority of the laws in this country are abominations that turn moral citizens into criminals either by mere classification (NFA 34 anyone?) or because of harmless personal choices (i.e. all "drug crimes"), but that's another thread and another time. A person with blind respect for "the law" is a person who cannot make his own moral judgement.

Your "obey the law" argument is meaningless, it doesn't address the moral issues regarding the wholesale deprivation of natural rights of people who offended the bureaucratic state. And yes sometimes the state gets it right (HURR DURR murder is wrong), but usually they are completely in the wrong (over half the inmates in federal prison are non-violent drug offenders).

It's not the government's prerogative to take away a person's rights. Let the gun store owner decide if he wants to sell guns to a murderer, or the parents if they want to let a pedo babysit their kids. Background checks exist for a reason.

 

[Scott]

I'd say a majority of the laws in this country are abominations that turn moral citizens into criminals either by mere classification (NFA 34 anyone?) or because of harmless personal choices (i.e. all "drug crimes"), but that's another thread and another time. A person with blind respect for "the law" is a person who cannot make his own moral judgement.

Your "obey the law" argument is meaningless, it doesn't address the moral issues regarding the wholesale deprivation of natural rights of people who offended the bureaucratic state. And yes sometimes the state gets it right (HURR DURR murder is wrong), but usually they are completely in the wrong (over half the inmates in federal prison are non-violent drug offenders).

It's not the government's prerogative to take away a person's rights. Let the gun store owner decide if he wants to sell guns to a murderer, or the parents if they want to let a pedo babysit their kids. Background checks exist for a reason.

Over half the people in prison are non-violent felons??????? Where did you pull that from??????????? San Quentin is just a nice place to stay? That's why most prisons are run by gangs, the Aryian Brotherhood, North and South Mexican Mafia, Bloods, Crips, MS13. You better check your stats because I will bet a $100 dollars your statement is wrong........ You need to take a tour of some prisons. Not Larch but major prisons.

Give me a definition of a non-violent felon?

Last time I checked crimes affect everyone and they are not just isolated to the one person.

 

[dmancornell]

Over half the people in prison are non-violent felons??????? Where did you pull that from??????????? San Quentin is just a nice place to stay? That's why most prisons are run by gangs, the Aryian Brotherhood, North and South Mexican Mafia, Bloods, Crips, MS13. You better check your stats because I will bet a $100 dollars your statement is wrong........ You need to take a tour of some prisons. Not Larch but major prisons.

Give me a definition of a non-violent felon?

Let me google that for you

First link, 55% of federal prison inmates are convicted of a drug related worst offense, i.e. no violent crimes which supersede drug violations. Feel free to send me the $100 over paypal gift.

Also I fail to see how your point regarding gangs running prisons has any relevance to the issue at hand. I went to school with bullies, therefore every schoolchild is a bully?

Last time I checked crimes affect everyone and they are not just isolated to the one person.

Indeed, I heard that if I sawed 2 inches off my Mossberg barrel a baby seal dies.

 

[Scott]

Let me google that for you

First link, 55% of federal prison inmates are convicted of a drug related worst offense, i.e. no violent crimes which supersede drug violations. Feel free to send me the $100 over paypal gift.

Also I fail to see how your point regarding gangs running prisons has any relevance to the issue at hand. I went to school with bullies, therefore every schoolchild is a bully?



Indeed, I heard that if I sawed 2 inches off my Mossberg barrel a baby seal dies.

Drugs don't don't hurt anybody? Look at all the other countries trying to get their drugs here. Then who distributes it? It is not school kids...... Drugs affect the whole nation and cost tax payers billions in dollars every year>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[Partsproduction]

Like I always say, legalize everything and the crime rate drops to zero, chuckle.