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I don't know of a circumstance where I would've handed my pistol to a stranger who happened to come onto the scene. I know this was all happening very fast, the good guy didn't have much time to think about things. Imagine what's going through the mind of the guy who had the pistol handed to him. He's thinking, "Oh how did I get myself into this??"

That part bothered me a LOT and I do mean a LOT too. Granted things are happening fast but I would never hand my loaded gun to some stranger like that. Maybe ask stranger to take over holding the damn guy down. If the stranger had set off a round, even by accident, and it hit someone? There goes the owners life down the crapper for years of legal hassle.
 
Protecting endangered lives, good. Once that had been done, apprehending the perp, that escalates the situation. That puts the perp on the defensive and risks greater violence. My opinion, once the lives are protected, back away. Let the law deal with the guy after that. If he gets away, so be it. If you back away and the perp doesn't do same, that's a new scenario to deal with. We cannot know what might have happened; it looked like the bad guy started to back off when he saw the gun. But here's the thing. Earlier in the video, we saw the bad guy start to back off and leave the store; then he changed his mind and came around to assault the clerk. So he might've done the same thing in the parking lot if he hadn't been taken down. This part is all speculation and the good guy with the gun didn't know what happened inside the store.

I don't know of a circumstance where I would've handed my pistol to a stranger who happened to come onto the scene. I know this was all happening very fast, the good guy didn't have much time to think about things. Imagine what's going through the mind of the guy who had the pistol handed to him. He's thinking, "Oh how did I get myself into this??"

The video guy makes the point of, "Is a six pack worth the risk?" He goes on to talk about how many businesses now have a policy of letting shoplifters go, don't apprehend, don't try to recover goods. This is pretty universal in today's retail world. The unknown and possibly lethal results of attempting apprehension are risks that greatly go beyond what might be gained. Many of us have the principle in mind that crooks shouldn't be allowed to "get away" with crime, but the reality is that the innocent shouldn't be inflicted with suffering -- mortal, financial, legal or by whatever means. This is the prevailing current societal value.

I agree. He was righteous to draw and present the gun from within the vehicle. But when you get out and attempt to coerce at gunpoint, what if he calls your bluff? You no longer have private domain of the vehicle, you're in public now. The knee to the head was well done, but how many would have thought to do that? The perp also seemed like he was drunk. A lucid bad guy or a bad guy on stimulants would have been a bad spot.
 
The dude's a fireman. A 1st responder, and he acts like it. Not like that Broward County resource officer at that Florida school. This guy stares death in the face as part of his job, and has not just a desire, but an ingrained need to help people. He couldn't just drive away, ESPECIALLY in front of his kids. In this new age, it would be more likely a passerby would do what that dumb arsed clerk did and pull their cellphone out for some likes on FB. Once you start, you see it through, no hesitation, no second guessing until it is over. Please keep that mindset in mind as you critique the actual DGU. That perp is lucky the guy is more interested in saving lives than taking them.
 
Protecting endangered lives, good. Once that had been done, apprehending the perp, that escalates the situation. That puts the perp on the defensive and risks greater violence. My opinion, once the lives are protected, back away. Let the law deal with the guy after that. If he gets away, so be it. If you back away and the perp doesn't do same, that's a new scenario to deal with. We cannot know what might have happened; it looked like the bad guy started to back off when he saw the gun. But here's the thing. Earlier in the video, we saw the bad guy start to back off and leave the store; then he changed his mind and came around to assault the clerk. So he might've done the same thing in the parking lot if he hadn't been taken down. This part is all speculation and the good guy with the gun didn't know what happened inside the store.

I don't know of a circumstance where I would've handed my pistol to a stranger who happened to come onto the scene. I know this was all happening very fast, the good guy didn't have much time to think about things. Imagine what's going through the mind of the guy who had the pistol handed to him. He's thinking, "Oh how did I get myself into this??"

The video guy makes the point of, "Is a six pack worth the risk?" He goes on to talk about how many businesses now have a policy of letting shoplifters go, don't apprehend, don't try to recover goods. This is pretty universal in today's retail world. The unknown and possibly lethal results of attempting apprehension are risks that greatly go beyond what might be gained. Many of us have the principle in mind that crooks shouldn't be allowed to "get away" with crime, but the reality is that the innocent shouldn't be inflicted with suffering -- mortal, financial, legal or by whatever means. This is the prevailing current societal value.
Agree. Also to expand on this a bit I would say "expect the unexpected" cuz u just don't know what a crim is going to do. Also there may at times be accomplices that u don't know about. I saw a video the other day of a state patrolman who got attacked by the guy he pulled over and then someone else driving by pulled over and also attacked the patrolman.

So giving ur gun to a stranger is risky imo. What if the stranger is an accomplice? What if an accomplice takes the gun from the stranger? Not likely but possible. I would want to be the one with the gun in that situation and not give it up until I had to/was the right time to do so. Otherwise u potentially give up your position of strength and control of the situation to someone else.

I'm not criticizing the good guy at all. He's a hero as far as I'm concerned. He could have run away but didn't. I like how he backed up at first buying some time to figure out what the heck was going on. Then he acted when his family was threatened. And that knee to the head is pure gold! :D

Also the post about parking the truck a ways away to protect the kids is a good idea and I like the fact about knowing your priorities. One thing I would say in that scenario though is make sure doors are locked, windows r up, and u have keys before leaving vehicle. I have personally seen crims try to do crazy things to get away. What if an accomplice was in the store or bathroom and tried to steal the truck? A few months ago I posted here about a guy who rolled his pickup on my street. The guy got out and then pretended to be just a bystander. Then he tried to steal the lady's car who had stopped and got out to help him. I guess I would say act to do the right thing for ur family and innocents, but expect the unexpected.
 
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Also the post about parking the truck a ways away to protect the kids is a good idea and I like the fact about knowing your priorities. One thing I would say in that scenario though is make sure doors are locked, windows r up, and u have keys before leaving vehicle. I have personally seen crims try to do crazy things to get away. What if an accomplice was in the store or bathroom and tried to steal the truck? A few months ago I posted here about a guy who rolled his pickup on my street. The guy got out and then pretended to be just a bystander. Then he tried to steal the lady's car who had stopped and got out to help him. I guess I would say act to do the right thing for ur family and innocents, but expect the unexpected.

I noticed the good guy had a trailer hooked on the back. So once he pulled into the parking lot, he was kinda stuck about backing up or maneuvering around much.

Yes to not knowing about the other people around him; he really had no way of knowing if the guy he handed the pistol to was an accomplice. Once again, the time element.
 
I've been to this gas station many times. There's always some seedy characters hanging around. The park across the street is a favorite place for homeless bums to hang out as well. THIS is why we carry concealed folks!
 
I agree. He was righteous to draw and present the gun from within the vehicle. But when you get out and attempt to coerce at gunpoint, what if he calls your bluff? You no longer have private domain of the vehicle, you're in public now. The knee to the head was well done, but how many would have thought to do that? The perp also seemed like he was drunk. A lucid bad guy or a bad guy on stimulants would have been a bad spot.

Stand your ground.
 
Stand your ground.

I think a jury would be more sympathetic than they were with the parking spot guy, but this guy lost his guaranteed righteous shoot when he got out of his truck.

He is now attempting to coercively detain the perp with a gun as a citizen absent a deadly threat and a felony per the citizen's arrest guidelines. None of the things the perp did to the woman would get a felony assault charge unless there were some injuries we couldn't see. This is why citizen arrest is perilous because most people think that a felony assault occurred when watching the video, but it would likely only charge as Assault 4th Degree absent substantial harm. I've seen people lose teeth and only have their assailant get simple assault.

You may be able to charge robbery with the combo of force and theft, but dude in the truck doesn't know that yet. That would be information gained after the fact which can't be weighed during the investigation of a shooting.

Again, in Wenatchee, he'd probably be ok. In Seattle or Portland, he'd probably get charged if he shot without the perp having a weapon. The fireman was at least the same size and was more physically fit. He also seemed sober vs the perp, which could help if the dude was hopped up on meth or PCP. Looked more like he was drunk. Probably why he went down so easy.
 
He saw dude beating on woman, so he knows he's a threat. Then, he approached the door of his vehicle. If dude tries to open the door, he gets shot in the face. All good in the hood.

It sucks to not have a holster and there was no one there to help, but I'd prefer the dude hold the guy at gunpoint and risk him running away than try to go hands on with a gun in his hand and no restraints. Its kind of one of those, "ok, now what?" situations. If there was someone to help, maybe they pin the guy while you cover with the gun. Its an example of S always HTF at the worst time, in the worst place, vs the worse enemy.

But, dude acted and for that, I applaud him.
Serious question time. Does Wa State have a law about carry while in your Automobile? What about a Loaded gun, in reach of the driver/on drivers person and all that..............I don't know this and I should! :(
Might explain the lack of a holster, and why he couldn't.

The knee to the face was awesome, but would that hold up to scrutiny?
 
Serious question time. Does Wa State have a law about carry while in your Automobile? What about a Loaded gun, in reach of the driver/on drivers person and all that..............I don't know this and I should! :(
Might explain the lack of a holster, and why he couldn't.

The knee to the face was awesome, but would that hold up to scrutiny?

If you have a recognized concealed pistol license, you may carry a loaded pistol in your vehicle. No other weapon can be loaded.
 
I think a jury would be more sympathetic than they were with the parking spot guy, but this guy lost his guaranteed righteous shoot when he got out of his truck.

He is now attempting to coercively detain the perp with a gun as a citizen absent a deadly threat and a felony per the citizen's arrest guidelines. None of the things the perp did to the woman would get a felony assault charge unless there were some injuries we couldn't see. This is why citizen arrest is perilous because most people think that a felony assault occurred when watching the video, but it would likely only charge as Assault 4th Degree absent substantial harm. I've seen people lose teeth and only have their assailant get simple assault.

You may be able to charge robbery with the combo of force and theft, but dude in the truck doesn't know that yet. That would be information gained after the fact which can't be weighed during the investigation of a shooting.

Again, in Wenatchee, he'd probably be ok. In Seattle or Portland, he'd probably get charged if he shot without the perp having a weapon. The fireman was at least the same size and was more physically fit. He also seemed sober vs the perp, which could help if the dude was hopped up on meth or PCP. Looked more like he was drunk. Probably why he went down so easy.

So basically, I'm right. Thank you.
 
The fireman was at least the same size and was more physically fit. He also seemed sober vs the perp, which could help if the dude was hopped up on meth or PCP. Looked more like he was drunk. Probably why he went down so easy.

YES! I was thinking the same thing when I watched that the first time. Looks like the scum was just drunk. If he had been high, mentally lacking, or worst case both, that could have gotten real bad real fast. Look how many of those drug zombies get shot multiple times and do not want to go down. One person going hand to hand with one of them is walking into a buzz saw. So many of these homeless scum roaming around have serious mental health issues that they then add all kinds of street drugs too.
I am sure the guy will not forget this incident for a LONG time. Sure he had no idea something like this would happen to him. Hopefully he will now be much more prepared.
 
Wouldn't go that far. What if dude charged?
I think the video of him using a bottle as a weapon might be useful to the defense. Not that the fireman would know this. Also, he shows no problem going hands on with this dude so I'd say he might give him a hip toss and then proceed to knee him in the head. Oh wait, that's what he did!
 
I think the video of him using a bottle as a weapon might be useful to the defense. Not that the fireman would know this. Also, he shows no problem going hands on with this dude so I'd say he might give him a hip toss and then proceed to knee him in the head. Oh wait, that's what he did!

He was lucky the guy was impaired. And, the guy didn't charge him, the fireman took him to the ground while having nowhere to oit his gun. Wrestling with a guy with a gun in your hand is a good way to have an ND or have the bad guy get it from you.

Everything leading up to that point helps, but none of it mattered once he was out of the truck and nothing he didn't see would be considered in the totality of circumstances. Once he is out of the truck and in public domain, he needs an imminent threat of death/serious injury and there was none. If dirtbag actually charged him, he would probably have won, but likely would be in some legal jeopardy if the gun went off.

I have had to transition from gunpoint to hands on with a suspect a bunch of times. The gun gets secured in a level 3 holster before you have a wrestling match.
 
"He saw dude beating on woman, so he knows he's a threat. Then, he approached the door of his vehicle. If dude tries to open the door, he gets shot in the face. All good in the hood."

Popping a cap right in front of your kid's face is not good for the kid's hearing.
 
WWbbD? Or what would Bill do???

Well I'm a former lifeguard and USCG SAR... so I'm wired to rescue people from physical harm.... no way I'm letting some dude beat up on a woman!!! But I'm 67 now, not in good physical shape, not in good health, etc... so yeah, I'm drawing down because of the force differential. AFAIK it's legal to use force in defense of others, the perp was using force, so drawing on him is legal. When it's ok to draw is discussed a lot on Active Self Protection, but the laws in WA may be different.

I'm not going to try to detain anybody... once the threat is ended, as far as I'm concerned the perp can leave or get away. It's a police issue at that point. My only job then is to be a good witness. And for gosh sakes, I'm not going to pursue the man if he does leave!!! I don't know if he has an accomplice or even a buddy somewhere. And I certainly don't need no Zimmerman action!
 
I noticed this video which does a really good job of organizing what ur options are and potential consequences when intervening on behalf of a third party. If u skip to the 15:26 mark that is where he lays out the options etc. I really like the part where he talks about deciding ahead of time what type of situations would you intervene etc. That's much better than deciding based on emotions in the heat of the moment only.

In the video he talked about young males fighting each other and deciding ahead of time would u intervene. I remember one time driving through limerick Ireland and I saw two guys holding a woman up against the wall. It looked a bit faked to me. I drove by later and they re-enacted the scene. I drove by a third time a little later and saw that they re-enacted the scene for another car. That driver stopped a long ways away and called the police which was the right response Imo. I don't know what exactly they were trying to pull but they were obviously trying to lure someone in. I had been forwarned to be careful in that area so I was wary (no cell phone on me as it was 17 years ago and I'm not sure I would have known what number to call anyway).

Things aren't always as they seem and sometimes the good guy can look like the bad guy or vice versa so we need to be careful. I don't mean never act, I just mean we need to be mindful of all the possibilities to explain what we see.
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