JavaScript is disabled
Our website requires JavaScript to function properly. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser settings before proceeding.
Status
Messages
852
Reactions
1,431
Edited to remove possible malicious site link.

Listen up! The ATF is trying to change the 4473 form (FFL Firearms Transfer Record that you fill out when you buy a new firearm) and they are going to sneak in a National Registry at the same time.

The STATED purpose of the change is to provide science deniers a spot under gender to choose something besides male or female. However, snuck in this proposal is the digitization of your information.

The way it is now, NICS (National Instant Criminal Background Check System) the place that your FFL calls your 4473 in to, only keeps Records of successful transactions for 24 hours. In other words, if you submit the paperwork to buy a firearm and the background check is submitted to their database, it is only retained for 24 hours before being deleted IF you were not denied.

Be aware, denials are kept indefinitely, however they are not kept in the NICS database indefinitely. NICS logs denials and keeps a database of denied applications for a period of 10 years, after which it is transferred to an FBI database.

take our poll - story continues below
Liberals want the Electoral College Abolished. How About You?
FFLs keep the 4473 forms forever. The ATF only has the form 4473s of FFLs that have ceased operations. There is a caveat. FFLs have noted that ATF agents have come in and photocopied and even PHOTOGRAPHED their 4473s following leads in criminal cases.

Currently the ATF has no ability to search the text of a 4473 on file, and no effort is made to tag files with identifiers that could later be used to sort and search. In fact, at one point, the ATF attempted to merge their "trace" information from one server with the form 4473 data.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
History of Out-of-Business Record Systems

Before 1991, ATF kept the Out-of-Business records in paper hard copy filed at the Out-of-Business Records Center. In 1991, they began a major project to microfilm the paper records and destroy the hard copy. This project not only included the licensee's "Bound Book" (Acquisition/Disposition records), but also every ATF Form 4473, which contains name, address, height, weight, race, date of birth, place of birth, and driver's license number (or other ID). (GAO Report T-GGD-96-104, 04/25/96)
Computer Assisted Retrieval System (CARS)

In 1992, ATF began creating a computerized "index" (based on firearm serial number and dealer license number) to the microfilmed Out-of-Business records. Data was originally captured on minicomputers and transferred to a mainframe computer database. The retrieval system, called "CARS" (Computer Assisted Retrieval System), was disclosed in a 1995 letter to Tanya K. Metaksa of the NRA. By 2000, ATF revealed they had indexed 100 million such records, with over 300 million additional records scheduled to be added over the following two years. (Commerce in Firearms, ATF, 2000) Over 400 million firearm transaction records were to be indexed by 2002 – about twice the total estimated number of firearms in the United States at that time.

According to gun rights advocates, which have long opposed any centralized, searchable registry of firearms sales, and notwithstanding the conclusions of the Government Accounting Office in 1996 that this system complied with legislative restrictions, this combination of automated and manual retrieval of individual sales records is a de facto system of registration of firearms, firearm owners and firearm transaction specifically prohibited by 18 U.S.C. 926(a).
Microfilm Retrieval System (MRS)

By March, 2004, ATF acknowledged the existence of their advanced automated Microfilm Retrieval System (MRS) containing information on 380 million firearms with an additional 1 million firearms added per month. This system had been enlarged from the previous system (CARS) to contain not only firearm serial numbers, but the manufacturer and importer as well. Additional data fields have been added to help identify specific firearms. (April Pattavina, 2005)

More recently (since at least 2005), ATF has been converting microfilmed dealer out-of-business records to "digital images". It is not clear whether this is a digitized "picture" file of the microfilm, or a digital record of each individual acquisition/disposition. However, guns rights advocates take the position that, regardless of the storage method, and whether access to the detail A/D record is automated or manual, this system is a system of registration of firearms, firearm owners and firearm transactions prohibited by 18 U.S.C. 926(a).
 
I thought store fronts were bound by laws to keep 4473 record books for up to 20 years? so i've heard at a few LGS i've been to. Just in case the ATF decides to come conduct an audit. I believe if they close they must also send all paper work to somewhere in Virginia?

Not to mention when buying from sportsmans warehouse i've had to fill out a 4473 on a tablet.
 
I thought store fronts were bound by laws to keep 4473 record books for up to 20 years? so i've heard at a few LGS i've been to. Just in case the ATF decides to come conduct an audit. I believe if they close they must also send all paper work to somewhere in Virginia?

Not to mention when buying from sportsmans warehouse i've had to fill out a 4473 on a tablet.

When they go out of business, they send in the records. Once the record is digitized, even if only an image file, it is relatively easy to search such images for the patterns of pixels that represent words and numbers -- that's how OCR software works and it works excellently on typed text, less so on handwritten but technology is always improving. Anyway, it's a digital registry.

It was only after a small shop I bought a pistol at went out of business that it occurred to me that it might make sense to buy firearms from large, established, likely to remain in business forever, type stores. Even big-box stores come and go though, so buying at Cabela's or similar might not be that much of a protection.
 
When they go out of business, they send in the records. Once the record is digitized, even if only an image file, it is relatively easy to search such images for the patterns of pixels that represent words and numbers -- that's how OCR software works and it works excellently on typed text, less so on handwritten but technology is always improving. Anyway, it's a digital registry.

It was only after a small shop I bought a pistol at went out of business that it occurred to me that it might make sense to buy firearms from large, established, likely to remain in business forever, type stores. Even big-box stores come and go though, so buying at Cabela's or similar might not be that much of a protection.

Was just thinking it'd be pretty stupid of them to take the paper or digital copy and then "burn" it after 30 days or so and not keep a carbon copy on record for ya know.......records/archiving sake. I've had a bitter chuckle over telling people who don't think a registry is real but then I ask them what they think a 4473 is for?. Far as I know most forms get kept in peoples folders for many such reasons. Like any paperwork you've signed/filed at your company for payroll/HR reasons. I feel is the same on the 4473.
 
I thought store fronts were bound by laws to keep 4473 record books for up to 20 years? so i've heard at a few LGS i've been to. Just in case the ATF decides to come conduct an audit. I believe if they close they must also send all paper work to somewhere in Virginia?

Not to mention when buying from sportsmans warehouse i've had to fill out a 4473 on a tablet.
ATF came out with an e-form 4473 in 2008 to help FFL holders reduce costs and errors. Who knows how these records are stored or how long they remain in computer form. Can they be accessed by ATF?

 
The large retailers probably have buyers info on a computer somewhere . They scan your driver card .I would feel safer having a old mom and pop shop that has a set of morals and believes in the constitution having my info.the large corperations could care less after the payment goes through.Old school shops are getting far and few .Tick licker was the best one ive been in in a while.
But of coase its all safe and nobody will hack it. :rolleyes: . It would be a valuble shopping list for china to sale to criminals :eek:
 
Link points to a "Private Virtual Country Club"

If threads like this are made pointing to BS sites or otherwise they will be promptly closed and the links removed.

That said, CLOSED!
 
Status

Upcoming Events

Tillamook Gun & Knife Show
Tillamook, OR
"The Original" Kalispell Gun Show
Kalispell, MT
Kids Firearm Safety 2 Class
Springfield, OR
Teen Rifle 1 Class
Springfield, OR

New Resource Reviews

New Classified Ads

Back Top