JavaScript is disabled
Our website requires JavaScript to function properly. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser settings before proceeding.
Most of the arguments I'm seeing here favoring traditional ML's seem to revolve around "If you do it just right and master a particular set of skills then you too can enjoy reasonable performance out of this tech within the increasingly out of date limits it has."

All of which are fine for hobby and sport purposes, but they quickly fall by the wayside when anything serious needs done. People have hunted and killed with pointy sticks, blunt rocks, and the odd chasing of animals off a cliff. They've made war with similar tools, but somehow nobody is embracing the pointy stick and blunt rock approach to hunting and SHTF protection. I don't see anyone advocating horse drawn chariots for SHTF protection, or a handgonne for a last ditch self defense role.

Why? Because traditional muzzleloaders exist in a historical limbo that is heavily rose tinted and steeped in several centuries of cultivated and massaged tradition. The flintlock gives you a direct connection to the early American settlers pushing west towards the far blue mountains. The Hawken ties us to the romance of the fur trade. A musket might connect us to the glory of the Civil War, or to the mythos of the wagon trains crossing the prairie.

So we try to find reasons to use them. When the historical appeal of real or replica artifacts kicks in, we want to use those tools, to feel their purpose, and slip back into the sepia toned past. Eventually hunting in specially segregated seasons, and various forms of authentic or semi-authentic shooting matches, combined with mastering the unique skillset needed to make these things work properly, create a need to further justify and promote their use.

That's when we cross over into "10 ways to use your musket when the zombies come. Number 5 will surprise you!"

It gets worse when the odd Fudd who thinks any gun that isn't a blued and wooden stocked hunting rifle is ok to ban decides that a ML is also a grand and noble tool that represents the "true" art of hunting/shooting/whatever. (Note, I don't think any of those Fudds are in this thread).

In SHTF, conceivably any technology is suitable for use in a pinch. When things go south, you keep rolling technology back as your supplies deplete, until you are reduced to the rocks and sticks from earlier. Anything better than that is a step in the right direction. But that too is steeped in romance and cultivated mythology. The noble survivor making do with what he has on hand, fending off the bandits/bear/tyrant soldiers/etc...

One might have mastered a primitive technology, but that does not require justifying it, or trying to find a place for it through convoluted means of extolling alleged virtues for a carefully developed SHTF scenario. That's the stuff of fiction, not planning. And I've met far too many people who think their ML will be all they need when the zombies come. Except the zombies have repeating cartridge rifles, body armor, and vehicles. Grizzly Adams 0, zombies 1. Maybe one of them will enjoy the cool ML though and take it as a trophy.

To me, when people start trotting out ML's as something other than hobby and sport guns, we cross over into the realm of surreal and fiction. When modern ML designs are eschewed, then the surrealism gets stronger as the attempts to force a single acceptable idea of what ML's are grows.

ML's are so heavily steeped in nostalgia and romance as to become a strange subculture of gun owners who are trying to bring forward elements of the past that the very people they emulate abandoned as technology advanced and became available. There are cases where a ML or some sort could be a stand in for self defense use, but it is almost always rooted in legal, rather than technical issues.

In short, I think the only use for traditional muzzleloaders in the 21st century are hunting, sport and hobby uses, and as a way to make money through the vibrant reproduction market. They are wonderful things, fun to play with and own, and put historical items into the hands of people who could never afford the original. But if they were so great for any other use, armies would still field muskets, and cops would still carry 1851 Colts. Instead, the world quickly abandoned the technology, and the only people remaining using it are almost exclusively hobbyists or people in remote places that cannot or do not care to get anything else. In other words, outliers.

Someone found out Santa Claus wasn't real today.....
 
There's a tool for every job. Some tools are about utility. Some are about beauty.

Modern arms are functional. I have never seen one that holds a candle to the works of Henry, Boss, Frasier, Manton etc.
 
speaking of 'point of view' during a big regional SASS match, many categories of antique firearms share the same posse and same firing line, etc.

One well appointed enthusiast of the cap-n-ball era, sporting all the appropriate gear for his kit outfitted with frontier regiment uniform & all the Holy Black hardware, was impressive in his performance as well as his shooting togs.

Taking a good-natured ribbing about the tribulations of keeping his cap-n-ball revolvers running without glitch in the demanding 6-stages-a-day, at match end he had scored very highly. And as we all were gathering our various spent brass & muttering about various chores, he chuckled while finishing with a flourish, the cleaning of his pistols. "There" he said. "I'm all ready for the next stage while all you have to do is clean/size/prime/fill/set boolit, and you'll be ready too!".....startled, he illustrated the relative ease & speed in his steps of charging his cylinder, ready for fresh primers. Amazing edification of just how we all thought we had somehow saved our time & efforts by using brass cartridges....:eek:o_O
 
Few things are uglier than an Ar15..:eek:
I know. I just have to lookin my safe. :rolleyes:
If I want to see beauty and function, I troll a Muzzle Loader Site.:)
But, if things truly get exciting I'll reach for my 7.62x39 M4.:D
 
To be fair...
The point of my thread here was that traditional muzzleloaders :
Have been around for a long time and in continual use...
Along with :
Using one for a primary firearm , may not be the "handicap" that popular notions and certain "facts" may suggest...

I was not trying to have a "This is better than that" type of thread...
Andy
 
All of which are fine for hobby and sport purposes, but they quickly fall by the wayside when anything serious needs done.
This is true but not EVERYONE puts 'something serious needing done' up front when it comes to firearms.
For me firearms are sport & recreation first and foremost - and serious on the 'backburner'
I too shoot muzzleloaders and they are not my 'primary' guns but are in the mix with all my guns which tend to be in the traditional & classic categories.
I think there is a serious lack of 'sport & recreation' when it comes to owning and shooting for many and far too much emphasis on the 'serious' part of it.
 
Great posts as usual Andy. I totally get what you're saying, you make it very clear.

I'm not a hunter, but if I were, I would seriously consider a muzzleloader for hunting. I know folks who have been just as successful with a ML as they have with a modern firearm.

I have a few BP guns myself, and would like to add a few more. Don't have a flintlock yet, so that's on the list. And I came across a beautiful stainless Ruger Old Army yesterday that had me drooling too. BP guns certainly are fun to shoot, and I like the connection they have to our past.

Still hoping to link up and shoot with you some day Andy. Hopefully we can make that happen.
 
Great posts as usual Andy. I totally get what you're saying, you make it very clear.

I'm not a hunter, but if I were, I would seriously consider a muzzleloader for hunting. I know folks who have been just as successful with a ML as they have with a modern firearm.

I have a few BP guns myself, and would like to add a few more. Don't have a flintlock yet, so that's on the list. And I came across a beautiful stainless Ruger Old Army yesterday that had me drooling too. BP guns certainly are fun to shoot, and I like the connection they have to our past.

Still hoping to link up and shoot with you some day Andy. Hopefully we can make that happen.

Thanks etrain...and yeah...linking up and shooting with you would be fun and is indeed something that I am looking forward to.

At the risk of getting another "You are wrong and I am right" kinda answer to a post of mine...

I would say that the Ruger series of "Old Army" revolvers as well as the Thompson Center "Hawken" rifles and others of that kind...Are also traditional style muzzleloaders.
After all even with modern materials and design , the use of coil springs , modern style adjustable sights , etc...they are meant to fired with loose black powder and ball or conicals with caps and or flint...in a 19th century manner.

I like them and for many they are just what they want or to a few , they are a "gateway gun " to a more historic firearm down the road...either way , both are excellent choices for shooting fun and hunting.
Andy
 
For me, there is always the historical aspect and the fascination of an era I was not alive to experience first hand! I really enjoy the "Art" as well as the science of traditional muzzle loading, and I have taken many matches and fed my family with a ML just fine! As many know, I'm most interested in that narrow transition period between single load muzzle loaders and the more modern self contained cartridge arms, specifically the late percussion era, which to me represents the "State of the Art" in Black Powder technology! I have a small but growing collection of 1855 patent Colt Revolving Rifles, which really stretch the ideas of what a traditional Black Powder firearm is and is capable of! With their self equipped loading system, and 6 shot cylinders, these really changed the game! AND when Henry Root combined his patent to the Colt design, we gained a quick change Cylinder for these arms that made them just as quick to "reload" as a more modern arm!

So, in the sense of tradition, where does this leave us? For me, i'm stuck hunting in the modern centerfire rifle seasons, which is irritating, but understood. For a defensive arm, if I had to, one of these would work just fine, it's only limits are how many bullets, primers and powder I had with me! Given the choice, would I choose one? Yes, and No! HA!
Yes, because my forfathers did just fine with them, well proven and reliable despite their age! No, because thankfully I have more modern firearms that are not as valuable or historically significant!

Andy hits on something EVERY ONE should be focused on weather it's a traditional ML or modern Rifle, SKILL! One must know the weapon he/she chooses inside and out, know how it handles in less then ideal ( range) conditions and with ammo that may be less then ideal for the task! One must learn the rifle in the most intimate ways, because some day that very tool may be the one you must rely on to feed or defend your self and loved ones! Ultimately, it isn't so much the weapon you choose to use, its the skill to use that weapon that makes all the difference in the world! It's often said, be ware the man who has only one Rifle ( or pistol) he likely knows how to use it!
 
For me, there is always the historical aspect and the fascination of an era I was not alive to experience first hand! I really enjoy the "Art" as well as the science of traditional muzzle loading, and I have taken many matches and fed my family with a ML just fine! As many know, I'm most interested in that narrow transition period between single load muzzle loaders and the more modern self contained cartridge arms, specifically the late percussion era, which to me represents the "State of the Art" in Black Powder technology! I have a small but growing collection of 1855 patent Colt Revolving Rifles, which really stretch the ideas of what a traditional Black Powder firearm is and is capable of! With their self equipped loading system, and 6 shot cylinders, these really changed the game! AND when Henry Root combined his patent to the Colt design, we gained a quick change Cylinder for these arms that made them just as quick to "reload" as a more modern arm!

So, in the sense of tradition, where does this leave us? For me, i'm stuck hunting in the modern centerfire rifle seasons, which is irritating, but understood. For a defensive arm, if I had to, one of these would work just fine, it's only limits are how many bullets, primers and powder I had with me! Given the choice, would I choose one? Yes, and No! HA!
Yes, because my forfathers did just fine with them, well proven and reliable despite their age! No, because thankfully I have more modern firearms that are not as valuable or historically significant!

Andy hits on something EVERY ONE should be focused on weather it's a traditional ML or modern Rifle, SKILL! One must know the weapon he/she chooses inside and out, know how it handles in less then ideal ( range) conditions and with ammo that may be less then ideal for the task! One must learn the rifle in the most intimate ways, because some day that very tool may be the one you must rely on to feed or defend your self and loved ones! Ultimately, it isn't so much the weapon you choose to use, its the skill to use that weapon that makes all the difference in the world! It's often said, be ware the man who has only one Rifle ( or pistol) he likely knows how to use it!
Truer worlds were never spoken. You hit the nail right on the head.
 
double-barrel, SxS, muzzleloading shotguns? I'll admit to having an interest in said, but have only shot cartridge shotguns.

I was riding my family horse back to the corral when I saw a fellow come out of a weed patch with a SxS shotgun over his shoulder and a brace of 5 pheasant on leather thong. His shotgun looked a little different and I always like to talk hunting, so I said hello and started a conversation. I was dumbfounded to learn that he was using a BP shotgun to get all those birds!!! It was a percussion model and kinda plain, but I was fascinated. Still am to this day.

My Colonial Pistol kit was a nightmare to finish, but fun to shoot. I used to take it outside my house in the canyon at night and watch it belch flame. LOL. Sold or gave away that pistol, but I still have an interest in percussion revolvers. So much to choose from and so little time and money!!

:D
 
Uh, WHAT?
Dang busted... :oops::D
Thanks for catching my math mistake....I'll leave up as is , for the HUH?! factor...

I was thinking of those "Handgonne" or other such spellings ...that were in use during the 13th century...And got to adding the years up wrong.
Granted those are generally not what one usually thinks of when speaking of "traditional muzzleloaders"...:D

So yeah...maybe 600-700 odd years , would be a better statement...
As you noticed , math is not my strong suit...even after coffee in the morning...:D
After all whats the difference between a few centuries and a thousand years , besides a zero or two....Just kidding...:D
Andy
 
Last Edited:
So before we get started on my ramble here...
Let it be known that :
I am not out to change anyone's mind...
Or
Have it thought that I am against innovation and new designs...
Or
Even that one must have whatever Andy likes and shoots....
Any of the above is not what I or my postings are about.

Traditional muzzleloaders have been with us and in use for hundreds if not thousands of years.
Take the flintlock ...
The flintlock really came onto its own around 1700...and its use hasn't really stopped since then.
Think about that... 3 centuries of use as of the year 2000...

Sure it was replaced by more modern arms , by the military as well as many if not most shooters of today and even back in the 1830's and 1840's , when the percussion system was catching on.
I am not saying that it was the best ignition system in a firearm , only that it has been used for a long time , if it was not useful why would it still be around and made today...?

With that said...
The flintlock was still being made and used , by choice , by many folks.
I have a Belgium made Flintlock Fowler , made around 1900-1920 , that is well into the repeating arms era , it was made to be used , not a "decorator " piece...I still hunt and shoot with it today.
My grandfather and great-granddad used a flintlock rifle well into the 1930's for keeping the family fed.
Walter Cline's book "The Muzzleloading Rifle Then and Now" is filled with folks who used the both the flintlock and percussion systems...Granted his "Now" in that book was the 1930's....

The Traditional Muzzleloader is still used today and not just as a hobby or quirk.
Matches are still won by these arms , game is taken by powder , patch and ball...
Many folks invest quite a bit of time a money into this , to be more than just a passing interest or lark.

Yes I will admit that their use is dying off in many areas and this saddens me.
Lots of misconceptions surround the use and history of traditional muzzleloader.
This along with sales ad wordsmithing to sell a new product has done much damage to idea of the use of the traditional muzzleloader in the modern world.

If anyone is interested I would like to continue with this "article"...when I get more time today...
And if that is the case...Could I get you all to hold off on direct comments and questions , about what I said in the post , until later today , when I am finished with this "article"...
Thanks
Andy
 
I have moved from cool semi autos to cool singleshot bolt guns and my flintlock which I haven't fired in years... I agree about the time it takes to reload.

Honestly the lead going down range is oh hum after a while. What rings my bells is the first 20-30 shots and all the time I have with friends talking guns as we play

In a SHTF situation, lets be honest. You aren't going to be fending off herds of zombies. It just isn't going to happen. You're way more likely to just want food on the table.

As for untraceable, in CA there was a kid that shot his abuser with an 1851 reproduction. He waited for the cops though and turned himself in. I think they gave him like 5 years considering the abuse... anyway the gun worked all too well.
 
Actually I'm going the other way from others which is typically the safest thing to do.
As i sit I have a new .32 cal flintlock only 2' away from me with Hopes #9 soaking in
the barrel... I'm going to start using it in trail shoots, matches, hunting small game, etc.
Personally in the next few years I hope to move to a remote area and go as far off the
grid as I can & forage and hunt for as much of my food as I can...

Longbeard
 
I think it's wise to know where we came from.

Lately, I have been reading Gun digest's from the 1970s. They are talking about:
1000 yard benchrest
Boattail bullets (High bc is beneficial to long range shooters)
High performance cartridges like 6.5x300 wby & 30/378 etc
Most folks never take the time to see what Grandpa did. They just assume the 300 ultra blaster is some sort of new technology invented by NASA. In reality, 45 years later, the marketing folks are shoveling the same old stuff to a new generation of shooters.

If you go back and look at Whitworth in the 1850s, and see what kind of accuracy his rifles were capable of with open sights, lead bullets and black powder, you will soon understand the machine itself has not been improved on a whole lot in the last 160 years.

Scopes have made it easier to see far away targets clearer. So groups have shrunk a little from that.

And powder tech has allowed more velocity than black did. Bullets have become more streamlined, so the whole time of flight/wind drift thing has become easier.

But for actual basic accuracy, the gains have not been much in the rifle itself.

Hi cap self loaders are spiffy if you are working against a foe with evil intent. So is a drone, some sniper over watch, an attack helicopter, a quick reaction force to rescue you if it goes bad, a plane you can radio in to hammer targets, a few tanks, an aircraft carrier nearby, some computer guided rockets, and Chuck Norris.

I have a modern autoloading shotgun in the safe. It has the class of Rosie O'Donnell. It's reliable. That's the only nice thing I can say about it.

There's a sxs muzzle loader in the safe. It's my next project. It has classy lines, history (Came here when FIL's family immigrated to the states), and better workmanship than any plastic coated modern art masterpiece. Before it's over, I intend to shoot pheasants with it. I wont worry about tactical reloads.

Life aint all 20 moa rails and high cap mags.
 

Upcoming Events

Centralia Gun Show
Centralia, WA
Klamath Falls gun show
Klamath Falls, OR
Oregon Arms Collectors April 2024 Gun Show
Portland, OR
Albany Gun Show
Albany, OR

New Resource Reviews

New Classified Ads

Back Top