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Use Of Sight Shooting In Close Quarters Gunfights

Discussion in 'Education & Training' started by 5shot, Jun 26, 2009.

  1. 5shot

    5shot Mill Creek, WA New Member

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  2. wakejoe

    wakejoe Beaverton, OR Well-Known Member

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    Point shooting is well and good.
    But what happens when you run into something where you NEED to use the sights?
    Now you need to take the time acquire your sight picture. Instead, if you had your sight picture from step 1, you would already be ready.

    This is why you keep BOTH eyes open, with an Aimpoint/Eotech/Etc. It works with Irons too, but some people have eye dominance issues that put the front sight somewhere other than on target.

    I would imagine the article was more leaning towards pistols, however. Where I will also say, "Keep a sight picture. It's faster in the long run."
     
  3. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    Speed and accuracy work together, which is to get hit(s) as soon as possible.
    Pressing the trigger at the speed needed to control the sights to hit your target is what it's all about.

    If the threat is in anyway difficult to hit, you will need to slow down on the trigger and focus more on sight alignment.
    If the threat is close and easy to hit, then….....this is no time for a bullseye type group, in fact, you need to be pounding shots into the threat as fast as possible and stop the threat NOW!
    Most of the time you will be somewhere between the two above examples.

    My rule of thumb for combat shooting;
    If your threat is larger than your front sight, better get ta shootin'
    If your threat is the same or smaller than your front sight, better get on them sights and fast.

    Practice this process slow at first..........remember, slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Speed will come with practice.

    Your decision on how fast vs. how slow to press the trigger, how much front sight vs. combat look through and/or body index is based on two things, your perception of the threat situation AND your perception of your skill with your equipment.

    If you practice only one trigger press and sight alignment you are a target shooter and not preparing yourself properly for the street, and doing yourself an injustice.
    Recognize the need for different levels of trigger press and sight alignment, practice at those levels and in between. In the fight have the ability to adapt to the situation smoothly not to survive, but to decisively win.
     
  4. wakejoe

    wakejoe Beaverton, OR Well-Known Member

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    And there you have it, two different opinions. Pick and choose! :D

    But I'll leave off with; While Wichaka is on one side of people, and I'm on the other. He'll have to develop his sight picture to shoot me through them. I'll already have mine. ;) This is why new-age optics are so useful. I can basically snap-shoot, but still have a definite dot on target at the same time. Win win. :D
     
  5. oldkim

    oldkim Kent, WA New Member

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    It boils down to the training doesn't it? How you train is how you will revert to under high stress.

    Point shooting is the "Zen" of shooting..... but it's really muscle memory. This style of shooting is really for experienced shooters, ones that shoot a lot and have developed the muscle memory to confidently place their shots at a close target.

    I am on the side of training as you would fight. If you carry you need to train drawing from your holster and shooting while engaging targets. You can take a bullseye shooter who can place a sub 2 inch group at 25 yards and now have them move and they can't hit a 8x11 target on the move. This is just an example - please do not get offended.

    Shooting is fundamentals... just like almost anything we do in life. You gotta do the fundamentals. Good grip, sight picture and trigger control.

    The "Zen" or point shooting for a newbie is a joke. I'm sure it can be done but that's a lot of wasted rounds. Just pointing and firing for a newbie is also dangerous.

    For new and intermediate shooters keep it simple. If you are confident with your shooting... it's time to "practice." What I call practice is shooting on the move. Go to a local IDPA match or USPSA (aka ISPC) shoot and get started on some good practical fundamentals of drawing from the holster, shooting on the move and tactical considerations of cover/concealment.

    You can do a search for a local club near you at either IDPA.com or USPSA.com
     
  6. bshnt2015

    bshnt2015 CA & WA Member

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    Do you mean "point shooting" with your front sight or just point and shoot ; )
     
  7. RainbowBob

    RainbowBob North Seattle Member

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    I don't understand...

    What threat ISN'T larger than your front sight in a self-defense scenario?

    What threat is smaller than your front sight? A cockroach at 10 ten paces?
     
  8. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    Get a proper sight picture on a target at 10-15+ yards, and see how much of the target is covered.

    You may see tertiary target areas on a human size target, but to get the primary area, one needs to concentrate on a better sight alignment and picture.

    This will also depend on the width of your front sight.
     
  9. 5shot

    5shot Mill Creek, WA New Member

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    I was going to start a new thread with the following, but this seems to be a good place for it.

    I'm looking for pics - films - videos of Sight Shooting + other shooting methods being used effectively in real close quarters gunfights.

    I have added a page to my site which will have links to them. Here's the URL: http//:www.pointshooting.com/sslinks.htm

    You should be able to see hundreds to thousands of pics and videos of Sight Shooting, since Sight Shooting has been taught for 100+ years; and film and videos have been around for at least 50 of those years.

    And as there are million and millions of handgun owners in the U.S. of A., there is a giant pool of possibilities to draw from, plus there are thousands of handgun trainers.

    Even the NRA can participate as they offer handgun training via NRA certified handgun instructors, and as I understand the situation, Sight Shooting is the main shooting method taught.

    Now realistically, I don't except much if any response as I have been involved in the area of close quarters self defense for 10+ years, I have yet to run across even one pic or video of Sight Shooting used effectively in a real close quarters gunfight. I have a patent for a handgun aiming aid that was patented back in 2000, so you can count me as more than just an interested bystander in regards to handgun self defense use.

    My only aim :) is to determine/use the method/s that provides the best chance of aiming and shooting accurately at close quarters in a real life threat close quarters situation, becasue it is in CQ situations where the likely hood of your being shot and/or killed is the greatest.

    ..........

    Per NYPD statistics, 75% of gunfights occur at less than 20 feet, and if you are going to be shot and killed, there is an 81% chance that it will be at less than 6 feet, and a 90% chance that it will be at less than 15 feet.

    The only savings grace is that the mis rate in armed encounters is more than 80%. That means that for every five bullets fired at a target, four+ go somewhere else. So, unless you are having a very unlucky day, chances are you will not be in a gunfight, and if you are, you will survive.

    ..........

    So, I would appreciate it if you or anyone could provide me with URL's to place on mynew page of Sight Shooting and/or other shooting methods, being used effectively in real close quarters gunfights.

    I will check them out, and if they appear to be factual and fair as to their presentation, I will add them to the top portion of the page.

    Rejects will be added at the bottom of the page if appropriate for viewing by the general public.

    Please send them to ps (at) pointshooting.com

    I also would appreciate being sent URL's to Pics - Videos - Films that show alternate shooting methods, such as FAS, QK, CAR, P&S, ..., that also show them to be effective in close quarters gunfight situations.

    I will add them as links below those showing Sight Shooting being used effectively.

    The method being used does not have to finely defined. For example, there are two pics on the new page of alternate methods being used.

    In one, Jack Ruby is using P&S to shoot and kill Oswald. A close examination of the photos discloses the he truly is using P&S. In the second photo, it is obvious that a drugstore guard is using a modified two handed isso grip to dispatch a robber.

    Would be nice to know that the shooting method you plan to use to defend your life and your loved ones, has actually been used in close quarters combat. Trust but verify makes sense.

    Just saying something is so, doesn't make it so, now-a-days in the age of the electron.
     
  10. oldkim

    oldkim Kent, WA New Member

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    5Shot,

    I just need to clarify a statement you made because reading it caused me some confusion. NRA does not teach point shooting (or what I call shooting from the hip).

    In re-reading your statement I believe that is what you meant but I want to be clear to all readers. Point shooting or shooting from the hip or fast draw, gut shooting or put simply shooting without a sight picture or "aiming" in the sense of using your sights.

    So, just to be clear: You are talking about drawing and not even raising your gun to eye level, basically draw and fire - Point shooting. Again for very close shooting (within 7 feet or less)

    It boils down to practice. Muscle memory and practice.


    For many of us to find a range that will let you shoot a target at 3 feet is hard to come by. Unless you own your own land or have special membership it's out of the question for most of us here.


    I'm glad you are so zealous about spreading the word of point shooting.

    From someone that teaches new to even experienced shooters I have to take a step back and say to teach someone to point shoot, especially for a new shooter or even someone that shoots 2-3 times a year is a mistake.

    One aspect you may want to research is to listen to Grand Masters in IDPA or USPSA. These are obviously very experienced shooters. When you watch them it seems they're not even taking aim since they are shooting so fast but when you talk to them yes they are.

    I guess I will have to qualify my point of view.

    For pure self defense and you have to engage in less than 7 ft it's pure reaction... basically point shooting.

    For shooting on the move and engaging multiple targets 10-40 feet then you need to aim or Sight shooting.


    I'm conducting a practice shoot on Sunday, August 30 at Renton Fish and Game.

    You are cordially invited and more than welcome to show what Point Shooting
    is all about.


    Young Kim
     
  11. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    Check out Jim Greggs method of point shooting, he's retired Border Patrol.

    I've been thru his class, very good. I think he's live around the Moses Lake area.

    I'm a member of his "Hole in One Club"

    http://www.jimgregg.net/
     
  12. oldkim

    oldkim Kent, WA New Member

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    So, just to be a butt.... Can he do that while on the move? And how about from a different body angle? Not squared off but like at a 45 degree angle (you know like dueling stance to minimize your front area so not to be shot).

    Can anyone that point shoots do a decent shot group on the move?

    Just a side of self defense and action shooting.

    And for point shooters why have a front sight? The sights are easily removable and there are a couple of models that don't even come with sights (just a groove).

    Also I watched the video from Jeff Gregg's site and it appears it's all muscle memory. Sorry I haven't read his book so I don't know what he teaches.

    I had a used gun that the sights were all bent out of shape. I shot and from that point of impact just placed more shots on target. It's like throwing a ball over and over again. Once you see it land where you want it to ... you just repeat what you did. Muscle memory.

    And all point shooting is at 15 feet or less (that's 4-5 yards). How about 21 feet (7 yards)?

    A good test would be for him to reholster and redraw every shot on target. Every new shot would be a new hold (grip) and body alignment. If you change those variables then you'll most likely change the point of impact. What I mean is shoot squared off, reholster, change your body alignment and draw and fire again. Your point of impact more than likely will be different.

    Now, take a Sight Picture and you reduce those variables but you are more likely keeping your impact the same.

    Just wondering?


    The reason I kind of have been commenting is because there are schools out there that teach just one focused thing. I had a guy in one of my shoots that could not move and shot. He had paid to be taught to just step one step and shoot. He did that so much that basics of walking and shooting was very difficult for him. He literally had to gallup around the course of fire.

    Take what you are taught and learn why it was taught and then apply what works. Every shooting scenario is different. The more "tools" you have under your belt the better you are off.

    There is nothing that replaces "trigger time." With good instruction to start. Practice, practice, practice. Oh, and have fun too! :thumbup:
     
  13. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    I mentioned Jim Gregg as 5shot was asking about any other people that teach point shooting. I don't advocate him one way or another...just another guy who teaches it.

    I teach all my guys to point shoot out to 10-12 yards. From 20 feet on in, you don't really have a lot of time to get the perfect sight picture and alignment.
    Most can pick up the front sight, and get ta shootin'.

    One must remember at what distance most confrontations occur. Most within or close to arms reach...3, 7 to 10 feet?

    Most all LE contacts are at that distance, which is why the average gunfight is at that distance.

    Most all point shooting is pretty much muscle memory.

    "The more "tools" you have under your belt the better you are off."
    Very well put. Which is what I said in my first post in this thread about trigger press;

    If you practice only one trigger press and sight alignment you are a target shooter and not preparing yourself properly for the street, and doing yourself an injustice.
    Recognize the need for different levels of trigger press and sight alignment, practice at those levels and in between. In the fight have the ability to adapt to the situation smoothly not to survive, but to decisively win.

    Have lots of tools...sometimes he/she who has more tools...wins!

    Kim, I think we're on the same page...just terminology is all.
     
  14. 5shot

    5shot Mill Creek, WA New Member

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    Oldkim and Wichaka,

    Nice to see some real comments rather than just *xs#@!&%'s. :)

    I can move and shoot using the method of Point shooting which I call P&S. It has been around since 1835 for sure according to some old books. There is a chronology of it on my site. Here's the URL if your interested. http://www.pointshooting.com/history.htm

    Here's a link to a short video of me shooting one handed: http://www.pointshooting.com/shoot1.wmv

    And one shooting two handed: http://www.pointshooting.com/shoot2.wmv

    And one moving and shooting in my garage. http://www.pointshooting.com/shoot3.wmv

    The method is not dependant upon the many must-be-met marksmanship requirements of traditional Sight Shooting which include: a specific grip with specific placement of the thumb and the fingers, a specific stance, controlled breathing, trigger squeeze and manipulation, and being able to both see and mentally coordinate the physical alignment of the sights and their correct placement for EACH shot taken.

    P&S also is not dependent on meeting the requirements of other Point Shooting methods such as: body or gun indexing, gun cant, placing the gun muzzle on an aim point, using a stiff arm and sighting along it, and etc.

    I have used it shooting and hitting fast swing targets and even aerials (pop cans) tossed up in the air at about 8 - 10 feet away. I assure you that you do not have time to look for the sights or just one of them.

    I just point my finger at a target. That brings the gun up and probably in my line of site, but all I am doing is pointing my finger with the gun going along for the ride. Point-n-pull, point-n-pull.... With QK you put the muzzle on an aim point usually a few inches below the target hit point, and with FSP, you put the front site on the hit point.

    What I do is simpler and as such faster, and quicker as you don't have to coordinate the muzzle and/or the FS, which the science says you will not be able to focus on clearly if at all, as with the SNS the muscle that helps with near vision relaxes, and the eye lens flates to assist with distance vision.

    But, if you can see or have the time to use the sights, you still can use the sights if you wish.

    However, because the barrel and index finger are in alignment, you will already have correct sight alignment and automatically, and you will also get a correct sight picture as the US Army says when we point at stuff, an impulse from the brain causes the arm and hand to stop when the finger reaches the proper position.

    Shooting and hitting aerials does take some practice. Just pointing and shooting takes little if any.

    -- Kim - Thanks for the invite to the Renton Fish & Game Club. I plan to come out. Hopefully you use those big targets so i'll get some on the paper.

    -- Wichaka - No one hole groups. Jim Greg sent me a copy of his book and I am looking at it. Plan to make a write up of it. Did that with Mike Conti's Police Pistolcraft and had it published in the Deputy Sheriff Magazine. Mike Conti, has also sent me his new book - The Officer's Guide To Police Pistolcraft. It looks interesting 2.

    I have reservations about what you say about training and muscle memory. If it works as you say, how come the missrate is what it is?

    The science and police combat studies like the SOP 9 say what will happen to us in CQB situations. So we should train using a method that recognizes that and which goes along with it as much as possible.

    Sorry, but no sights, no Weaver, no MT grip, etc., and particularly so if you are reacting rather than acting. It's not that those things don't work on the range, it's that the science says they can't be used, or won't be used in CQB due to the activation of the overriding SNS. And that's where there is the greatest chance of your being shot and/or killed.

    Again thanks for your comments.
     
  15. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    Seems that early methods of point shooting were pretty much muscle memory. But then they were based on the rock and lock position. That's what I was talking of.

    When I took Greggs class, after we had the chance to do the "Hole in one club" thing, he'd have us move, but stop and take a stance when we made our play.

    What I did find interesting is Greggs emphasis on the eyes, and I extremely agree with him on this.

    What I find in point shooting is; where the eyes go the shots will land. I have seen this so many times, not only with practicing, but in actual gunfights.

    This is exactly what happened in my last gunfight about 15 years ago. The subject came at me, and I wasn't able to get the proper stance, grip etc., but then in gunfights one seldom does. Anyway, I drew, did not obtain full extension and the shot hit exactly where the last place I was looking...his mouth. Took him in the lower teeth, just left of his center.

    Ever since then I have been teaching this, and it easily works when moving. And when Gregg spoke of it being the focal point (no pun intended) of point shooting, it was a great reinforcement.

    Personally I think sights are over rated. If one is looking for that perfect sight alignment and sight picture in a gun fight, they are either already dead and don't know it, or a bullet is coming their way, it just hasn't got to them yet.
    This is within reason...depending on distance.

    The body has a natural pointing ability, if you let it do its job.

    This what I teach;

    Take your grip hand index finger and point at something across the room. I'm not much of a betting man, but I'll lay good odds that you're pointing to the middle of whatever it is...and I didn't ask you to. In fact you don't have to use the index finger...you can use any finger, or a closed fist, the results are the same.
    We've been doing this since when we were first able to as young toddlers.

    Next;

    Take the slide of your gun, hold it at full extension as if you're shooting...and get that perfect sight alignment and picture..on the same object across the room.

    2 things;

    1) Again I didn't tell you to aim at the center and;
    2) I didn't have to tell you to keep it in perfect alignment either.

    You're doing all this without anyone ever telling you. For some reason our emphasis as firearms instructors has been a bit off. For us older folks, we were taught front sight, and was harped on us until it was sickening.
    The thing is, the front sight was never the problem in the first place, as from the example above...once you put it on target, the only conscience thing you need to do is tell yourself to press the trigger...the sights aren't coming off your target.

    Have seen shooters dramatically improve by having them focus on the trigger, not the front sight. Get your sight alignment and picture, then forget about them...focus on the trigger.

    What does this have to do with point shooting...plenty.
    Drill your eyes into your target where you want your shots to go, and the only conscience thing you need to worry about...is a smooth press. If you have to, say it out loud...Keep Pressing...Keep Pressing over and over. You're sights will not move off your target....or in this case with point shooting, your gun will not come off your target.

    Ever wonder why most people shoot better in the dark than in daylight?

    This isn't a "method", its just observing normal human behavior and going with what everyone does naturally.
    This will work no matter if you're standing still, moving in any direction, twisted sideways, laying on your back, prone, upside down on your back, and with partial, full or anywhere in between arm extension.

    You don't have to grip your gun a certain way, its just allowing your body to do what it does naturally.
     
  16. 5shot

    5shot Mill Creek, WA New Member

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    Wichaka,

    Thanks for sharing, and continued good luck to you.
     
  17. Jamie6.5

    Jamie6.5 Western OR Well-Known Member

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    Thanks to all of you. Good discussion, very informative too!

    I have questions tho,... I was taught that having a sidearm that "points naturally" for me should be a priority. So whenever I am shopping for a handgun, I am looking for one that when "pointed", naturally results in a good sight picture.
    I have to admit, this method has saved me some $$ over the years because I find few guns that point really well for me.

    So, can/should I toss this criteria out?
    Will practice with the weapon eventually override my natural tendencies?
    Will changing guns change this also? Or will use/practice with one cause "memory loss" with another?
    Is it really universal across different gun sizes, grip angles, and other ergonomic factors?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  18. hapuna

    hapuna Seattle, WA Member

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    Would you use point shooting if the perp were holding an innocent person with them?
     
  19. 5shot

    5shot Mill Creek, WA New Member

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    Jamie6.5

    "Thanks to all of you. Good discussion, very informative too!

    "I have questions tho,... I was taught that having a sidearm that "points naturally" for me should be a priority. So whenever I am shopping for a handgun, I am looking for one that when "pointed", naturally results in a good sight picture.

    "I have to admit, this method has saved me some $$ over the years because I find few guns that point really well for me.

    "So, can/should I toss this criteria out? "

    -- IMO, anything that can help you shoot better is a plus as long as it will work along with what can be expected to happen in CQ self defense situations.

    I am self defense oriented. Others are game and target shooting oriented, such as those who teach sighted shooting with no cautions as to it's limitations in CQ life threat situations, and alternatives.

    The US Army says to use a 2 handed isso at 15 feet and under, and at night.

    See my article that asks the question is FSP Front Sight Folly, and the one on how to get a fast, automatic, and correct flash sight picture + a fast, automatic, and correct sight picture.
    ...........


    "Will practice with the weapon eventually override my natural tendencies? "

    -- According to the stats, studies, and the literature the SNS will take over, and you will not be able to control it. I imagine SEALS and the like, who train constantly and are in the attack mode should be able operate successfully.

    If you are a mere mortal, the answer IMHO, is nope. If we defaulted to our training, the mis rate wouldn't be > 80%, and all the crooks would be dead, and etc...

    People like reassurance, and trainers like to get paid for training.

    And the more the better. :)
    ......

    "Will changing guns change this also? Or will use/practice with one cause "memory loss" with another?

    "Is it really universal across different gun sizes, grip angles, and other ergonomic factors?

    "Thanks in advance."

    Great questions. According to the literature, you should train with an emphasis on gross motor skills, as again, the greatest chance of your being shot and/or killed is at < 15 feet and that's where you probably will experience the Fight or Flight response. So anything other than that which works with it won't be able to be used.

    As to guns, I have use a large variety of them. I usually rent a different one each time at the range. I get reassurance that the method I use works with different guns. :)

    For me, a 9mm is best. Last Oct., I used a Ruger SR 9 and liked it. It is a hi cap but has a necked down grip at the top, so it fit my hand well.

    Guns with fat grips are hard to grip, and hi power / larger caliber guns are harder to control. If its hard to grip and hard to control, your chance of missing will increase, so even if you use silver one stop bullets, you could end up dead.
    ......

    Just my 2cents.
     
  20. 5shot

    5shot Mill Creek, WA New Member

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    The PS method I like is aimed shooting. But, you also can use the sights if you can see them, and wish to. A plus is that the PS method allows you to print the target fast and accurately.

    If the lighting is such that you can't see the sights, or if the sights are black and the others are dressed in dark or mottled clothing, what would you do?