Urban Pistol Caliber Carbine?

[ilikegunspdx]

I believe that's a pistol caliber pistol.

"Pistol" vs "PCC" means nothing in this context Imo because everyone understands "PCC" refers to a range of weapons with different barrel lengths in pistol caliber. "PCC" has been used to describe pistols such as the mp5 and Stribog etc for years. "PDW" is usually used interchangeably with "PCC" although peopel thinknofnthat as smaller. It's all semantics. People know what you are talking about when you say "PCC".

A 14.5" AR, shorter barrel AK, and shorter barrel .308 are all technically "pistols".

Remember that the whole concept of <16" = concealable = "pistol" is a relic. It was created by 1934 law largely in response to gangster violence and based on weapons available at that time. Much of the ATF bs we are seeing now has to do with forcing modern weapons into that ancient definition (round peg into square hole). Reinforcing the terms of that law as if it's some absolute just promotes the confusion imo.

I would say the same is true for braces vs stocks. The entire "SBR" concept came from the same 1934 law. Some people say a stock is "legal" and "real" while a brace is a "gimmick" to get around the law. Well the law is outdated and fundamentally flawed, the sbr portion being the result of a congressman adding an exception for hunters at the time. Saying a stock is "good" but braces are "bad" is simply reinforcing that flawed law imo. Use what you want I say.

 

[Certaindeaf]

"Pistol" vs "PCC" means nothing in this context Imo because everyone understands "PCC" refers to a range of weapons with different barrel lengths in pistol caliber. "PCC" has been used to describe pistols such as the mp5 and Stribog etc for years. "PDW" is usually used interchangeably with "PCC" although peopel thinknofnthat as smaller. It's all semantics. People know what you are talking about when you say "PCC".

A 14.5" AR, shorter barrel AK, and shorter barrel .308 are all technically "pistols".

Remember that the whole concept of <16" = concealable = "pistol" is a relic. It was created by 1934 law largely in response to gangster violence and based on weapons available at that time. Much of the ATF bs we are seeing now has to do with forcing modern weapons into that ancient definition (round peg into square hole). Reinforcing the terms of that law as if it's some absolute just promotes the confusion imo.

Do you know what a carbine is?

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Do you know what a carbine is?

The world does not use the term "PCC" to refer to any particular barrel lengths only, or the fact that it has a stock etc. They use it to describe a type of weapon that shoots pistol caliber cartridges of various barrel lengths and configurations. It's a general term. I'm done arguing about semantics. It's a waste of time and liek I said people understand what you are talking about when you say "PCC".

 

[Certaindeaf]

The world does not use the term "PCC" to refer to any particular barrel lengths only, or the fact that it has a stock etc. They use it to describe a type of weapon that shoots pistol caliber cartridges of various barrel lengths and configurations. It's a general term. I'm done arguing about semantics. It's a waste of time and liek I said people understand what you are talking about when you say "PCC".

Say what now?

 

[Willysmb]

Some friends and I got together for an informal "test" of which of the various guns we collectively owned had the "smoothest" recoil impulse. All were what are commonly referred to as "Braced pistols". All were 9mm. This was purely subjective. No math or physics involved, lol! Each gun was in "roughly" the same configuration, but no two were exactly alike. Same ammo for all "testing". What we found was as follows, from least recoil impulse to most recoil impulse-

MP5
Stribog A3 (Their roller locking version)
PSA 9mm AK
9mm AR15 pattern (no hydraulic buffer, just standard system)
Scorpion Evo

I fully realize there are a lot more 9mm braced Pistols out there, but this was the result of what we had available to us. As well, I in no way am saying that one is superior to another. A lot of factors went into our respective purchasing decisions for each of these braced pistols. There are advantages and disadvantages to each of these designs. What each of us purchased was a product of weighing those factors to come up with what met each of our needs/constraints.

Hope this is helpful information.

Best regards.

WMB

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

Still kinda blows my mind that nobody has made a side-folding or telescoping stock for the hi point. Heck, or even a picatinny rail back plate for aftermarket stock compatibility. Being fed from a pistol grip the OAL could be super short, making it an easily packable gun. I know there's only so much a company would want to invest in parts for a beater gun, but rapid prototyping and 3d printing are greatly reducing the cost of R&D. I suspect a company like Magpul could develop an aftermarket stock that would actually look good, be reasonably priced for the consumer, and still net them a decent profit per unit sold.

CAA USA MCK HI-POINT C9, JCP 40, JCP 45, JNC CF 380 Conversion Kit Micro Roni (Pre-order)

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zahal.org

 

[Jbsheepdog]

Still kinda blows my mind that nobody has made a side-folding or telescoping stock for the hi point. Heck, or even a picatinny rail back plate for aftermarket stock compatibility. Being fed from a pistol grip the OAL could be super short, making it an easily packable gun. I know there's only so much a company would want to invest in parts for a beater gun, but rapid prototyping and 3d printing are greatly reducing the cost of R&D. I suspect a company like Magpul could develop an aftermarket stock that would actually look good, be reasonably priced for the consumer, and still net them a decent profit per unit sold.

Magpul would not make a product for a "garbage gun" like a hi-point. They have military contracts and are now seen as "the standard" for alot of different things. They wouldn't harm their brand like that.

 

[MichaelH]

Some friends and I got together for an informal "test" of which of the various guns we collectively owned had the "smoothest" recoil impulse. All were what are commonly referred to as "Braced pistols". All were 9mm. This was purely subjective. No math or physics involved, lol! Each gun was in "roughly" the same configuration, but no two were exactly alike. Same ammo for all "testing". What we found was as follows, from least recoil impulse to most recoil impulse-

MP5
Stribog A3 (Their roller locking version)
PSA 9mm AK
9mm AR15 pattern (no hydraulic buffer, just standard system)
Scorpion Evo

I fully realize there are a lot more 9mm braced Pistols out there, but this was the result of what we had available to us. As well, I in no way am saying that one is superior to another. A lot of factors went into our respective purchasing decisions for each of these braced pistols. There are advantages and disadvantages to each of these designs. What each of us purchased was a product of weighing those factors to come up with what met each of our needs/constraints.

Hope this is helpful information.

Best regards.

WMB

Just built an EPC 9mm with a 10" barrel, using a heavy bolt and heavy buffer with reciprocating weights, and it was way snappier than I expected, but still pretty controllable.

 

[Willysmb]

Just built an EPC 9mm with a 10" barrel, using a heavy bolt and heavy buffer with reciprocating weights, and it was way snappier than I expected, but still pretty controllable.

Check out a guys site- Blowback9.com

Great info for the 9mm AR15 enthusiast!

 

[JRMadrid]

AR9, 16" barrel, suppressed. Range & performance. Reliable platform.

 

[Alexx1401]

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zahal.org

Depending on what the price ends up being that does look interesting. Could turn one of those HP pistols into a cool little shooter.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Depending on what the price ends up being that does look interesting. Could turn one of those HP pistols into a cool little shooter.

For me it's like dogbubblegum covered with a paper towel. Can't abide hi-points. Ugly zimak crap. Covering up with overly complicated cheap plastic shell doesn't do it any favors. But just my opinion. Others might think it's the best gun they have ever owned and that everyone should own one and put it in a display case in their living room and have coffee table books about hi points and name their twins "yeet" and "cannon" and have a hi point shrine in the basement and go to high point conventions with people missing their front teeth that drove there in their amc pacers and and wearing polyester and all that kind of stuff, nosayin.

 

[Alexx1401]

For me it's like dogbubblegum covered with a paper towel. Can't abide hi-points. Ugly zimak crap. Covering up with overly complicated cheap plastic shell doesn't do it any favors. But just my opinion. Others might think it's the best gun they have ever owned and that everyone should own one and put it in a display case in their living room and have coffee table books about hi points and hi point shrine in the basement and all that kind of stuff, nosayin.

I don't own one and unless I had no other choice can't see me ever having one but, they fill a niche market. Are they butt ugly ? Yep. Do they tend to just work? Yes. If I had no guns and had a choice of one of their pistols or nothing? Easy choice for me. So for me if someone wants one? Far as I know I don't own a piece of the Co so could care less.

 

[Flopsweat]

For me it's like dogbubblegum covered with a paper towel. Can't abide hi-points. Ugly zimak crap. Covering up with overly complicated cheap plastic shell doesn't do it any favors. But just my opinion. Others might think it's the best gun they have ever owned and that everyone should own one and put it in a display case in their living room and have coffee table books about hi points and name their twins "yeet" and "cannon" and have a hi point shrine in the basement and go to high point conventions with people missing their front teeth and wearing polyester and all that kind of stuff, nosayin.

I don't think anyone here is saying that it's the best gun they've ever owned. Most of the positive comments seem to boil down to "It's not as big a POS as you might think." They're just more reliable and accurate than they look like they should be. Sort of a bulky and even uglier Glock.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

I don't think anyone here is saying that it's the best gun they've ever owned. Most of the positive comments seem to boil down to "It's not as big a POS as you might think." They're just more reliable and accurate than they look like they should be. Sort of a bulky and even uglier Glock.

It's just a hyperbolic joke.

 

[JustInAr15]

I believe that's a pistol caliber pistol.

9х19 or 9x21 for EU

 

[Flopsweat]

It's just a hyperbolic joke.

Huh. I guess it should have been funnier then.

 

[MichaelH]

Check out a guys site- Blowback9.com

Great info for the 9mm AR15 enthusiast

I like pccs that take Glock magazines, because OEM fun sticks aren't expensive (comparatively) and there are reliable cheap aftermarket options, that also fit the most common sidearm in America. The AR 9 mostly does that, other than those Colt magazine holdouts, either with a normal lower and magwell conversion or dedicated Glock lower.

I agree with Willysmb 100%. All 9mm PCC AR owners, take note of blowback9.com as a detailed resource. I sourced the parts for my EPC "pistol" build using his recommendations. Specifically, I used EPC receivers, a 10" BA EPC barrel with an enhanced feed cone (supposed to make JHP's feed more reliably), a heavier than average bolt from bking firearms, flat wire carbine spring and 8.6 oz KAK 9 mm deadblow buffer to stop potential bolt bounce, and an SB Tac brace. FWIW I was at my sort of fuddy indoor range, that allows "centerfire pistols" and only rimfire rifles, so not wanting to confuse anyone I primarily shot it using a cheek weld as a rear contact point. It felt really quite snappy, but I expect my face is more sensitive than my shoulder is an explanation.

I also have a 16" Foxtrot Mike 9mm side charging carbine (for sale on here, now,
Thread 'Foxtrot Mike FM 9 16 inch AR 9 Carbine'
https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/foxtrot-mike-fm-9-16-inch-ar-9-carbine.479920/) that seems to shoot softer, but perhaps that's because always it's shouldered when used. Given that it's not a DI system, I can't see why barrel length would matter that much other than for balance.

So why the pcc for urban areas rather than a rifle? Lots, probably most of the people in an urban area are innocent, even during civil unrest. Most criminals in civil unrest won't have armor. In the city shooting anyone more than say 25 to 30 yards away is likely going to draw a murder charge assuming a return to law and order, and I'm responsible for where my rounds go, so less capacity to penetrate is better. Honestly just having the PCC in the city will keep most bad people away. If I had the $ I'd chose a longer barrel HK SP5 clone, but build your own AR 9 can be done for less than $650 with quality parts and iron sights are fine. Out in the woods or country, duh, an AR carbine in 5.56, an AK or a .300 bo is the obvious self defense choice.