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i used to make military electronics, i have spoken to those who were contracting our work and they only use products made in the US. maybe you should know what your talking about before you claim that i dont.

My son is an electronics tech in the US NAVY I do know what I am talking about. MANY MANY MANY of the componets used in military electronics are made overseas.
 
Unfortunately having a union shop prevents a company from being very flexible. It's no wonder jobs are being outsourced to Asia.

To be clear, personally I am anti-union, not anti-worker.

You overlook on of the largest and most important job sectors: the Building Trades. Employers are able to rapidly man up for huge jobs with a simple call to the hall,and la then off at will at the end of the job.

The wage scale is just a base, valued employees are often paid more based on merit and the value to the company.
 
i used to make military electronics, i have spoken to those who were contracting our work and they only use products made in the US. maybe you should know what your talking about before you claim that i dont.

My son is a US NAVY electronics tech he has worked on Ship board radar (2.5 years) The Link system (2.5 years) and now is working on Aviation navigation systems for NAS San Clemete And many many many componets he works with are sourced from overseas.

http://defensetech.org/2012/03/29/richard-clarke-all-u-s-electronics-from-china-could-be-infected/

Counterfeit Chinese Parts Slipping Into U.S. Military Aircraft: Report - Yahoo! News

http://defensetech.org/2012/05/30/smoking-gun-proof-that-military-chips-from-china-are-infected/
 
It's practically impossible to source ICs for use in components that AREN'T made in Taiwain/China/Phillipines/Thailand, etc.

SIEMENS AG is one of the largest electronics contractors of the US military.. Based in Germany.
 
That is the biggest load of crap i've ever heard. Without unions people A LOT of people would be making crap money, have crap benefits, and work crap hours. And the economic stress??? Ya we should just continue to let the wealthy people that own these companies pocket even more, get out of more taxes, and give nothing back to the people. Where as union workers will spend their money locally, pay their share of taxes and actually have a chance at having a good family environment. I suppose we should just eliminate unions, lower minimum wage and let all the illegal immigrants come work for cheap and let all our american citizens live in poverty.

You have your opinion and I respect it, and to a certain point, I agree, that was the case in the early 1900's. With that being said, minimum wage, working hours, all controlled solely by the local and federal goverment. Unions have no say anymore about minimum wage, well the lobbiest they send to Washington I guess does, but look in the mirror, Unions have driven wages and artifically driven inflation, prime example, Detroit and there low quality vehicles they produce. But again, that is my opinion.
But wanna know what the Unions do now..............take money for no results, guess that is why unions make up 5% of the workforce now. People don't need a mafia based group, they just find a better job if they don't like the company, as it should be.
Lets look at a case study shall we: Actual events Communications Company doing business in Chicago 2012

Before the union began their campaign a new employee started the company as a non-skilled laborer at 15.50 per hour. Overtime was unrestricted and voluntary at time an a half (state law is optional in IL for time and a half)
Annual merit raises between 3% - 9% pending on performance.
Annual 10% bonus, paid out quarterly. (Employees asked for QTR payouts in 2008, the company agreed)
Health Insurance 86% paid by company with several options from Blue Cross to Kaiser.
401K up to 6% matching.
21 days paid leave/PTO, 40 hours additional every 5 years.
Employees could garage there company vehicle at their home, gas was paid by employer, company paid for commute to work)

Union came in, and promised 40 hour work week, no overtime (avg was 42.5 hours per employee) Work hours could be accumlated throughout the week. For example, if you pulled 40 hours mon-thursday, you did not have to work on Friday. Overtime had to be approved by the union board.
New work vehicles.
100% health benefits.
Better Bonus's and annual raises not pending employee performance.

So the fulfillment office did a vote in January, standing with the Union was Rev Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and other celebrities. They were "going to change their lives" was slogan. And guess what, they did, at a vote of 2/3rds majority.

So all happy right, then they go into collective bargining, which the Union fought for a grand total of 3 days, lets see what they got.

Before the union began their campaign a new employee started the company as a non-skilled laborer at 15.50 per hour. Overtime was unrestricted and voluntary at time an a half (state law is optional in IL for time and a half)
Union agreed to all entry level employess at 13.05 an hour, if you are an employee under a year still at level one, your pay was reduced to starting wage. You could only work up to an 8 hour day, overtime would be union board approved, but only approved once a month at the boad meeting. Time and a half was still in given, but the company continued that, the union only asked for straight time.
Annual merit raises between 3% - 9% pending on performance.
Union agreed to a raise of 1.7% annual bonus, this would be provided for every employee regardless of performance, Union claimed this as a big win. Monthly dues assessed by Union, 1.6%, so your annual raise the employee would see is .1%
Annual 10% bonus, paid out quarterly. (Employees asked for QTR payouts in 2008, the company agreed)
Annual bonus canceled, union employees not eligible. The Union rep actually went on record to say "Dues can not be assessed on bonus wages and we only negotiate wages that are assessable to monthly dues"
Health Insurance 86% paid by company with several options from Blue Cross to Kaiser.
Kaiser only, 50% paid by company
401K up to 6% matching.
Union agreed to 401K plan, no company matching. Company forced 2% matching, Union took credit for the 2%/B]
21 days paid leave/PTO, 40 hours additional every 5 years.
No change
Employees could garage there company vehicle at their home, gas was paid by employer, company paid for commute to work)
Employees lost the ablity to garage at home, vehicles had to be garaged at the company head quarters. 3/4 of the employess where forced to buy a vehicle.
Advancement from tech level 1-5 before union was self paced. Was not Seniority based. Avg tech level raise, 15%.
Union agreed and fought and won for a seniority based program.
Union also agreed to a no strike clause.
Performance will be graded qtrly, in the event you do not meet your goals, you are terminated. This idea was brought to the company by the Union which the company agreed too

So can someone tell me how the employee won? The union is the biggest communication's union in the US.

Same employees after collective bargining did a straw pole, all agreed after 2 years as per the contract, they will decert.

Employees tried a class action law suite against the Union, was thrown out due to the employees voting in the union. The court said that promises made are not contracted in writting.
 
My son is a US NAVY electronics tech he has worked on Ship board radar (2.5 years) The Link system (2.5 years) and now is working on Aviation navigation systems for NAS San Clemete And many many many componets he works with are sourced from overseas.

http://defensetech.org/2012/03/29/richard-clarke-all-u-s-electronics-from-china-could-be-infected/

Counterfeit Chinese Parts Slipping Into U.S. Military Aircraft: Report - Yahoo! News

http://defensetech.org/2012/05/30/smoking-gun-proof-that-military-chips-from-china-are-infected/

Sounds like the testing/reliability procedures in the DOD are practically non-existent. A broken IC simply does not function, they do not break over time (unless subjected to extreme conditions, but that is a different topic). Glad my taxpayer dollars are being put to good use.

Also the threat of a backdoor in IC's is vastly overblown. Most IC's are dumb parts that are non-programmable, therefore pose no threat other than not working (see above). The US government has their own fabs for large IC's and CPU's. ASIC's should be programmed by trusted suppliers.

The biggest issue of backdoors is in software, and if the DOD is stupid enough to outsource their software/firmware programming to outsiders, then they deserve whatever they get.
 
My son is an electronics tech in the US NAVY I do know what I am talking about. MANY MANY MANY of the componets used in military electronics are made overseas.

components yes but nothing is built anywhere other than the US. the furthest anything is built (as far as electronics) would be a non programmed IC chip.

when a part built in another country goes to a military supply it is the mistake of the company who says it was made in the US and when it happens, the company will no longer be awarded a contract for military products. these stories you post are incomplete in their information. many times they are shipped to a warehouse and end up being mixed with similar products made in china (because most electronics are made in china) then the shipping personnel make the mistake of shipping those products to the distributor. this is in conflict with the contract that was agreed on with the producer and military distributor. the military explicitly prohibits finished products made in other countries.


as far as dmancornell's comment: the production and testing is outsourced to US civilian facilities and is audited by regular civilian run companies. now the civilian run companies have to meet a criteria set by the DOD to be permitted to produce items for our military. most of the criteria is based on the need for intellectual security and some of it is manufacturing capabilities. many of these companies are not US based but all of the work has to be done on US soil. that being said, many mistakes are still made.
 
Employees tried a class action law suite against the Union, was thrown out due to the employees voting in the union. The court said that promises made are not contracted in writting.

Then it's to late for the "membership" to get rid of it. The union (and I KNOW the one being talked about here) is entrenched for life.
 
Unions are a big part of what is wrong with this country and the economics stress we are in

:s0140::s0140::s0140::s0140:

Now go around the house and post picture of everything in your house that is made in the USA.

One reason that we are in this mess is because our parents were stupid enough to START buying crap from other countries.
Not worrying about if the neighbor was going to keep his job if they bought foreign goods.
Just trying to buy the cheapest stuff they could. And as much as possible.

If the country hadn't become so glutenous,they wouldn't need to buy everything as cheap as they can find it.
If they bought what they NEEDED,only,they would have had enough money to buy USA made items and kept the neighbor working.
And the country.
 
Unions have become as greedy as the so called "fat cats". Unions don't give a rip if they bankrupt the very state they reside in. As long as I get my paycheck mentality, makes me sick.
Unions used to have a place, back when Frank Crow was around, now they are as political and corrupt as anyone else out there.
Living wages are a good thing, but I've worked around a lot of union folks who produce little to nothing on a daily basis and collect a healthy paycheck.
Reality is setting in and I love it. It's time everyone EARNS their check with hard work, the fat is only just beginning to get cut. Oh, for those who will bash me, I'm in a local, simply because I have to join when I work in the seattle market.
 
Is it the Right to Work....or more definitively...The Right to Work For Less?

Ever wonder why the price of gas is cheaper in Auburn but more expensive in Bellingham which is a lot closer to the distribution refineries? It's because the gas companies know what people are willing to pay based on demographics and market research. Same goes with the labor market in general. Businesses in Right to Work for Less states know how to work the supply and demand game with jobs and their workers.

Right to Work for Less? Sad to see the American Work Force bend over to big business in those states. What next? Give up their Right to Bear Arms you say? Never.....well...maybe just in a few states to begin with....
 
Is it the Right to Work....or more definitively...The Right to Work For Less?

Ever wonder why the price of gas is cheaper in Auburn but more expensive in Bellingham which is a lot closer to the distribution refineries? It's because the gas companies know what people are willing to pay based on demographics and market research. Same goes with the labor market in general. Businesses in Right to Work for Less states know how to work the supply and demand game with jobs and their workers.

Right to Work for Less? Sad to see the American Work Force bend over to big business in those states. What next? Give up their Right to Bear Arms you say? Never.....well...maybe just in a few states to begin with....

Don't agree, right to work actually means the employee does not have to stand with a union, can work under the company, not the union leader. In most cases, and you can look it up, employees who don't stand with the union gets a higher wage, more benefits, and advances quicker.
 
Interesting case about that union tacticalgunner. Were the union officers previously employees, or were they outside folks brought in by a national union? I find it surprising that the employees would even have ratified that contract given how bad it was. There are good and bad unions, but they can be changed simply by voting out the bad apples. You know the saying guns don't kill people, people do? The same goes for unions, they are a legal creation that only do what the people who run them want them to. You are simply negotiating with a large group of people for your wages, which is more likely to give you a better deal. For some it may be worse, but I think society as a whole benefits from a large middle class with well-paying jobs. Labor is becoming a smaller and smaller part of the price of finished goods, I wish more businesses would take to heart the lessons of Henry Ford.

Henry Ford's $5-a-Day Revolution - Press Release
 

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