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Your experience is from a time that predates REAL armor, which makes your opinion and declaration of the subject, outdated and irrelevant.

What kind of nonsensical logic is " I know people shot with steel who lived, and Shot with Ceramics who died". Becuase we all know the only variables in combat are the types of plates people are wearing...

SMH...

NO sir you do not what you are talking about real armor has existed for quite a while now. Most of the current body armor tech isn't all that new. There are some newer materials like Dyneema which have emerged in the last 30 years , but the vast majority of aramids fibers and ceramics being used are not by any stretch of the imagination new tech. Again your experience is limited to what you've observed nothing else. The one thing I do know is seem to be lacking in your understanding of ballistics and what bullets can or will do once they leave the barrel and what happens when they impact a surface.

Factually speaking there are people who work in field who have a lot of math degrees that do not fully understand it.
 
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Have you ever seen people shot with Armor on? Ever had to 9liine a buddy who was wearing the some of the finest armor available? Have you every Worn Armor everyday for a few years in a hot zone?

Stop trying to whitewash a proven and legit statement with " Uh ya know not everyone in the military.............." to justify your inferior purchasing.

Its absolute insanity that people would try and cheap out with these fake armor substitutes. It is a life saving device no different than a Safety Harness, Parachute, ect. You willing to jump a 40 year old soviet paracute sold at the local surplus store? Didn't think so.

Standards exist for a reason. Lessons are learned in blood.

I don't have personal experience being shot, seeing others shot, or using armor for work. I'm also ok with that. I do understand more than basic physics though, and I think your personal experience has value, but there seems to be a lot of emotion in responses while ignoring some simple facts.

I don't particularly care to get into an internet debate, as I have nothing to prove or ego to stroke, but my position rests along the lines of: many different types or armor - they all have thresholds and levels of effectiveness within given parameters. Some do things better than others, some are heavier than others, but they all can stop bullets within a threshold.
 
Is steel better than nothing? Duh

Is it an acceptable replacement for real armor? No way in hell.

I have a set of ar500 shooter cut plates in a carrier I use for training. I will give anyone $2500 cash to take a single m193 shot COM with it on.

Any takers? You will be an internet legend.
 
Is steel better than nothing? Duh

Is it an acceptable replacement for real armor? No way in hell.

I have a set of ar500 shooter cut plates in a carrier I use for training. I will give anyone $2500 cash to take a single m193 shot COM with it on.

Any takers? You will be an internet legend.

Level 3 or 3+ as they advertise? What length barrel, what distance? Physics matters....

Why not just do it anyway and record it? (Without someone in it - Add some cardboard to it or whatever)
 
Plenty of .30-06 hunting rifles in the U.S. and probably a warehouse (or three) worth of surplus AP .30-06 ammo out there...


Looking at the NIJ certified list again, I see a lot of identical model names sold by different companies. For example... RMA's 1155 plates and Hesco's 4401 series, as well as the HighCom 4S17 series. There are not as many armor companies making their own, as there are those who sells armor made by specific companies.

Edit. It would probably be more accurate to say that the NIJ list identifies distributors and retailers of armor

There are quite a few hunting bullets that have been classified as AP such as certain Barnes X bullets. Never mind the ultra premium stuff like the Woodleigh Weldcore and Tungsten Solids used for dangerous game.

Several years ago I shot some ceramic plates with a 458 Win Mag and my Siamese Mauser in 45/70 just to see what would happen. I would not want to be wearing any armor that took a hit from a big game rifle launching some form of premium hunting ammunition at high velocity.

Having said all that day to day in America having a standard soft vest is all the protection one will need . Unless you plan on going to a protest hot spot . Then by all means plan accordingly
 
Ever seen what spall does to soft flesh?

Personally, no, just research that I have done, but spall mitigating coating does prove effective. They offer a build up, lot's of youtube tests put card board around the plate to show if spall leaves the coating and could be harming the user, it seems effective - to a point.
 
Level 3 or 3+ as they advertise? What length barrel, what distance? Physics matters....

Why not just do it anyway and record it? (Without someone in it - Add some cardboard to it or whatever)


Yep those pesky ballistic , angles , bullet strike , velocity , and what is the armor going to be suspended from ? free swinging plates stand a way better chance of no penetration , placing the plate flat against a hard surface will greatly increase chances of penetration . Lots of variables involved

I'll add a plus two for wanting to see the video results , it never grows old watching someone shoot stuff.
 
Yep those pesky ballistic , angles , bullet strike , velocity , and what is the armor going to be suspended from ? free swinging plates stand a way better chance of no penetration , placing the plate flat against a hard surface will greatly increase chances of penetration . Lots of variables involved

I'll add a plus two for wanting to see the video results , it never grows old watching someone shoot stuff.

No disagreement there, I would want the test to closely mimic being worn, not free swinging, various angles, etc. Basically, try to make it fail, without doctoring the test in a manner that guarantees it. Unbiased, I guess, but scientifically sound.

I might just do that myself, have AR500 3+ build ups. It will be a while and I'll try to find it already done well online with solid data before I waste my own.
 
Just do it the same way the NIJ test standards says to do it...

1. 12x12x12" block of nonhardening modeling clay in a box with 2 sides open

2. Drop the plates from 3 feet onto concrete

3. Give the plates and carrier a salt water bath for 30 minutes

4. Carrier and plate set fastened to said block

5. Shoot the setup from 15 meters

6. Record it all on Youtube.
 
Just do it the same way the NIJ test standards says to do it...

1. 12x12x12" block of nonhardening modeling clay in a box with 2 sides open

2. Drop the plates from 3 feet onto concrete

3. Give the plates and carrier a salt water bath for 30 minutes

4. Carrier and plate set fastened to said block

5. Shoot the setup from 15 meters

6. Record it all on Youtube.

Yep sounds like a fun day and interesting viewing
 
With that said... I do wonder.. even if they may not be currently NIJ certified.. what happens if one put NIJ Certified 3A armor backers or vest behind the steel armor or even the UHMWPE plates, at least those that doesn't have a ceramic strike face or kevlar layering wraps... I would think that would help with Back Face Deformation and possibly slow down some velocities of M193 and M855 and M855A1?

Edit. Its come to my attention that the majority of the steel plates are advertised as "standalone" when they might be better off as "In Conjunction With"; using good 3A vests or backers.. after all, that was what Second Chance and Safariland did for "Trauma insert" steel 5x8/6×9 plates with the 2A-3A vest panels to improve protection against 7,62x39 and .30 carbine as well as carbine velocity of handgun ammo
 
With that said... I do wonder.. even if they may not be currently NIJ certified.. what happens if one put NIJ Certified 3A armor backers or vest behind the steel armor or even the UHMWPE plates, at least those that doesn't have a ceramic strike face or kevlar layering wraps... I would think that would help with Back Face Deformation and possibly slow down some velocities of M193 and M855 and M855A1?

Edit. Its come to my attention that the majority of the steel plates are advertised as "standalone" when they might be better off as "In Conjunction With"; using good 3A vests or backers.. after all, that was what Second Chance and Safariland did for "Trauma insert" steel 5x8/6×9 plates with the 2A-3A vest panels to improve protection against 7,62x39 and .30 carbine as well as carbine velocity of handgun ammo


That is how Dyneema rigid or hard plates are used. It seems to work well enough in that application ..
 
Its one of the reasons alot of these plates will stop 308/30-06 but 7.62x54 and 300WM will shred them. There is also the multi-hit resistance, because anything worth shooting once is worth shooting more.

Load manual much ? 7.62x54R is almost identical in performance to 7.62 NATO / 308 Winchester.

30-06 has 20% more performance than the aforementioned 7.62 NATO and can get much closer to a 300 Win Mag in delivering energy .

How a cartridge performs against a hard surface has a whole lot to do with bullet construction not just velocity on its own , do not get me wrong the velocity is required for penetration but you ain't getting through on speed alone. The same thing holds true for how it performs against flesh , without proper expansion you are just drilling holes
 
I got some ar500 3+ because it was inexpensive and figured it was better than nothing in a pinch. Might upgrade later on

Honestly I can't see anything wrong with your logic, chances are your plates will never be utilized for their intended purpose. If you end up needing them then you will be protected as good as is possible for you to be given the limitations of your gear.

I've never advocated people spending huge amounts of money on equipment that they will either use very infrequently or never . The armor I own consists of a soft vest that sees use sometimes and some hard armor that has not been worn in a long time . Honestly I do not see this as a bad thing , it is my desire that America never experiences a time when average people have to start wearing body armor on a frequent basis .
 
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No thanks. Spalling and ricochets are not to be messed with. We tested those plates before I retired from Group. Full on they are ok. Anything from the flanks or not on center mass, you have a serious issue with spalling and ricochets. But I am biased. I've had my life saved by a Ceramic ESAPI plates. If steel was better than ceramic, the military would use it. But if you're strapped for cash, they are better than nothing.
 

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