National Unemployment Fraud = No Possession of a Firearm

[Sandaholic]

You want people to act right? Go back to hanging people that need it and restoring everyone else's rights fully after they have served their time. People will act right.....

 

[RicInOR]

Other "felonies" Because this includes the possibility of a year in jail, would you be convicted ....

You Can Get a Year in Jail for Feeding Garbage to a Pig

 

[Ownerus]

Well, the whole issue would have been moot if the guy hadn't committed a crime in the first place!!!

And what is a "crime"? With the ever increasing number of malum prohibitum
"laws", many of which are "felonies", how do you ever really know if you're committing a "crime"?
Let's face it, there is no level of unconstitutional infringement that many would not tolerate as long as it was properly codified as "law".

 

[Vaultman]

You want people to act right? Go back to hanging people that need it and restoring everyone else's rights fully after they have served their time. People will act right.....

This is the perfect answer. Short of this everyone will not 'act right'. (Even with this there will still likely be some problems). I wish we could get to doing things this way, but I never foresee our country being able to to it.

 

[Sandaholic]

This is the perfect answer. Short of this everyone will not 'act right'. (Even with this there will still likely be some problems). I wish we could get to doing things this way, but I never foresee our country being able to to it.

Not unless we go through some very hard times.

 

[GWS]

And what is a "crime"? With the ever increasing number of malum prohibitum
"laws", many of which are "felonies", how do you ever really know if you're committing a "crime"?
Let's face it, there is no level of unconstitutional infringement that many would not tolerate as long as it was properly codified as "law".

You are mixing apples and oranges.
First of all this guy knew exactly what he was doing--Defrauding the government out of money. This is not a case of I thought that I had a muzzle brake and the cop called it a flash-hider (That was a California thing)
It is one thing to get busted for a law that is impossible to follow or if a fellow not being aware of a new or changed law. But in this guy's case he willfully broke the law. Any court would hold that it is common knowledge that stealing money is against the law and that law is Malum in se, so there is no excuse for this guy's action.
He made his choice and must take the consequences.

 

[GWS]

You want people to act right? Go back to hanging people that need it and restoring everyone else's rights fully after they have served their time. People will act right.....

Add public shaming and caning to that mix and you'll be on to something.

 

[Alexx1401]

Like it or not, right or wrong, driving a car and owning a gun are not comparable in our country. Again, I'm not taking a stance on the comparison. But it's true.

<shrug>, you are far from a minority in that opinion. That the items in the Bill of Rights are privileges that can be taken at any time by some law maker. I am sure like most, as you do, also pick and choose which ones they think are really rights, and which ones are privileges. As I have mentioned I too felt pretty ambivalent about it for a long time. Did not effect me, so I did not care. As I have gotten older, and seen what law makers are doing, I no longer feel that way. Even among gun owners I am a minority here though. The vast majority of gun owning public does agree with you. That law makers should be able to decide who is allowed to be protected by the Constitution, and who should not. So you are on the majority side of this. Not sure how far this will go until the majority ever start to rethink that. Been very sad to watch.

 

[Alexx1401]

My view is that we have too many things that can make us felons. Pick up a feather. Ooops, it is a Bald Eagle feather. You are a felon (most, certain original peoples are OK, as are certain others)

Same with those convictions which have a 366 days incarceration possible, therefore this is the equivalent of a felony.


A guy I work with, 30 yrs ago committed a felony. Only convicted because his pastor and parents convinced him to confess. Could have gotten a misdemeanor charge. He was 17-18. Now in his 50s, ... been a law abiding resident ... (if you can't vote or serve on juries are you really a citizen)


I believe the problem is wanting to get as much of the pound of flesh as possible. And, that prosecutors in order to get plea bargains accepted, like to use the big stick.

Yep! Long ago I almost plead guilty to a misdemeanor Domestic charge. Girl I was living with was quite the drinker. Now and then she would come home blasted, and get a little out of hand. One night she started throwing a few loose items at me since I would not react as she wanted. Law rolls up, she said I grabbed her. I said yes, I took the lamp she was trying to crown me with away. LEO's wanted one of us to leave, I had zero problems with that. Said that was what I was trying to do that set her off. They cited both for Domestic, ticket to show up in court. I left her, when my date came up I showed. Judge was trying to get me to plead no contest, and just pay a fine. I said no. He tried real hard. I said no. I want a court date. She never showed. They set court date. I come in they give excuses why they had to postpone. Again tried to get me to plead, said they would just drop it for "court costs", some simple amount. I was temped to do so. I was stubborn and said no again. 3d time I show up in court they drop it all. I had to keep missing work for this and it was a PITA. Then many years later they passed that "new law" that anyone convicted of what they were trying to get me to plead to, no more guns. Many LEO's got caught up in this. Made me glad I had not taken that plea they so tried to get me to take.
The majority of gun owners support this. Throw out all kinds of red herrings about why they are all in on rights really being privileges. What it comes down to is no law has yet hit them. As soon as one does they will be screaming about "rights" and will be reminded they were all in on there being no such thing. Its a bill of privileges, not rights. Of course by then it's too late but they will get what they asked for.

 

[bbbass]

Does anybody know when/where the concept of forfeiting ones rights, not just 2A, started? I'm not kidding... I happen to be very ignorant on this as felon's loss of rights is just something I've always accepted. 1950s generation, Perry Mason, Joe Friday, Highway Patrol, Lone Ranger, sense of right and wrong. Sure it happened a long time before I was weaned.

 

[GWS]

Yep! Long ago I almost plead guilty to a misdemeanor Domestic charge. Girl I was living with was quite the drinker. Now and then she would come home blasted, and get a little out of hand. One night she started throwing a few loose items at me since I would not react as she wanted. Law rolls up, she said I grabbed her. I said yes, I took the lamp she was trying to crown me with away. LEO's wanted one of us to leave, I had zero problems with that. Said that was what I was trying to do that set her off. They cited both for Domestic, ticket to show up in court. I left her, when my date came up I showed. Judge was trying to get me to plead no contest, and just pay a fine. I said no. He tried real hard. I said no. I want a court date. She never showed. They set court date. I come in they give excuses why they had to postpone. Again tried to get me to plead, said they would just drop it for "court costs", some simple amount. I was temped to do so. I was stubborn and said no again. 3d time I show up in court they drop it all. I had to keep missing work for this and it was a PITA. Then many years later they passed that "new law" that anyone convicted of what they were trying to get me to plead to, no more guns. Many LEO's got caught up in this. Made me glad I had not taken that plea they so tried to get me to take.
The majority of gun owners support this. Throw out all kinds of red herrings about why they are all in on rights really being privileges. What it comes down to is no law has yet hit them. As soon as one does they will be screaming about "rights" and will be reminded they were all in on there being no such thing. Its a bill of privileges, not rights. Of course by then it's too late but they will get what they asked for.

Yep
I have a friend who got burned that way. I still don't know how a law that is essentially ex post facto could be allowed to stand but there it is. No one, not my congressperson or 2A lawyers have been able to explain it. Nor could they explain why a misdemeanor bust would carry felony penalties.

 

[GWS]

Does anybody know when/where the concept of forfeiting ones rights, not just 2A, started? I'm not kidding... I happen to be very ignorant on this as felon's loss of rights is just something I've always accepted. 1950s generation, Perry Mason, Joe Friday, Highway Patrol, Lone Ranger, sense of right and wrong. Sure it happened a long time before I was weaned.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 brought that about.

 

[nammac]

The Gun Control Act of 1968 brought that about.

Wow, in my lifetime... So sad my parents generation didn't fight this...

 

[DB is Here]

Wow, in my lifetime... So sad my parents generation didn't fight this...

They likely trusted their Government...I doubt most would be able to say that today.

 

[Ownerus]

You are mixing apples and oranges.
First of all this guy knew exactly what he was doing--Defrauding the government out of money. This is not a case of I thought that I had a muzzle brake and the cop called it a flash-hider (That was a California thing)
It is one thing to get busted for a law that is impossible to follow or if a fellow not being aware of a new or changed law. But in this guy's case he willfully broke the law. Any court would hold that it is common knowledge that stealing money is against the law and that law is Malum in se, so there is no excuse for this guy's action.
He made his choice and must take the consequences.

No, I specifically mentioned malum prohibitum offenses. Theft has been bad since (or before) Moses came down from the mountain. Not defending the thief but a malum prohibitum offense like you flash hider example, if considered a felony, can get your rights stripped every bit as quick as an actual malum en se crime. And legislatures seem hell-bent on creating more of these as fast as possible.

 

[Alexx1401]

Wow, in my lifetime... So sad my parents generation didn't fight this...

first a POTUS was shot in front of a crowd. Then one of his brothers. There was only the 3 networks. Algore had not invented the internet. People were screaming for "something to be done". Not much has really changed. Look how many gun owners are still all in on more laws?

 

[nammac]

first a POTUS was shot in front of a crowd. Then one of his brothers. There was only the 3 networks. Algore had not invented the internet. People were screaming for "something to be done". Not much has really changed. Look how many gun owners are still all in on more laws?

Understood... one should never trade freedom and liberty for perceived safety...

 

[Alexx1401]

Understood... one should never trade freedom and liberty for perceived safety...

Damn right but it's like pounding your head against the wall trying to get gun owners to stop. So many of them are all in on every damn compromise that comes down the way. Always with the "well if we just give them some common sense laws". Like "well I am over 21 now so as long as I can keep my AR why not make it so those who are old enough to join the Military can't own one?" Of course then soon those people who they wanted to join in with tell them "ok, you no longer need that AR of yours and we want it". Then they start screaming about rights. It is amazing and sad to watch it just keep happening.

 

[Ownerus]

Wow, in my lifetime... So sad my parents generation didn't fight this...

Actually, they did. I was just a teenager watching in frustration. They fought it, probably more vigorously than I've seen anything since. The tide of emotion and ignorance was very strong then too.

 

[bbbass]

Does anybody know when/where the concept of forfeiting ones rights, not just 2A, started?

The Gun Control Act of 1968 brought that about.

Okay, I didn't think that the entire loss of rights for felons originated with the GCA, so I dug a bit deeper. FWIW:

Resulting from criminal conviction
Felony disenfranchisement is one among the collateral consequences of criminal conviction and the loss of rights due to conviction for criminal offense.[9]

In Western countries, felony disenfranchisement can be traced back to ancient Greek and Roman traditions: disenfranchisement was commonly imposed as part of the punishment on those convicted of "infamous" crimes, as part of their "civil death", whereby these persons would lose all rights and claim to property. Most medieval common law jurisdictions developed punishments that provided for some form of exclusion from the community for felons, ranging from execution on sight to exclusion from community processes.

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I propose a two part crime prevention program modified from what others have suggested.

1. First, let's make felonies only for "infamous" or "heinous" crimes, and then revamp our public prosecutor system to take all the incentives for abuse out.
2. Public hangings and firing squad, to be done two days after a fair trial. If it turns out later that the person was innocent, the Prosecutor, the Defending Attorney, the Judge, and the Jury will all be shot, hung, drowned like rats, whatever.
3. Banishment for life for certain crimes (such as illegal entry ), to be enforced by execution on sight.
4. A once a year "Purge" night to end at sunrise. No exemptions allowed.