Troutdale, OR - flash-mob at an Albertsons

[bikejunkie]

Here's some info about how Oregon differentiates. My point is I'm not enough of an expert on Oregon Law to step into this kind of situation with a gun and shoot people unless there is a direct, immediate physical danger to myself or others.

Oregon State Theft Laws | eHow.com

 

[bikejunkie]

So unless each person had stolen more than $1000 of goods it's second degree theft and a misdemeanor:
§ 164.045¹
Theft in the second degree

(1) A person commits the crime of theft in the second degree if:

(a) By means other than extortion, the person commits theft as defined in ORS 164.015 (Theft described); and

(b) The total value of the property in a single or aggregate transaction is $100 or more and less than $1,000.

(2) Theft in the second degree is a Class A misdemeanor. [1971 c.743 §124; 1987 c.907 §3; 1993 c.680 §19; 2009 c.11 §12; 2009 c.16 §2]

 

[lv1986]

who cares many will be dead or jailed within 10 years...

 

[FireFighterChen]

It seems i am mistaken about burglary somewhat- intent to steal has to be proven to make what happened burglary, which means the people in the store would have had to know the punks had premeditated entering the store to steal I doubt there is any way the people in the store could have known that at the time- we all know it to be the case now after the fact. Shoplifting and theft are in fact divided by a dollar amount most of the time with petty theft (typically under $1000) a misdemeanor and over a grand being Grand theft, which may be either a felony or a misdemeanor...I still don't think the situation presented was justifiable cause of application of deadly force. If said mob starts attacking people? Then you become justified but just trashing property and stealing goods is not enough by my understanding of the laws.

Here's a brief read that explains it:Difference between burglary and theft shoplifting cases | Orange County Criminal Defense Attorney - Law Office of Joe Dane

admittedly it's California law, but I'd bet Oregon law is very similar

The Difference Between Burglary, Theft, and Robbery

We have already established that burglary is the uninvited and illegal entry into a person's property, cargo container, or any vehicle or vessel, but burglary, robbery, and theft are three different offenses that carry different charges and there by the corresponding penalties vary as well. The charges depend on the jurisdiction where the incidents took place but generally, burglary is viewed as a lesser offense than robbery or theft.

Robbery is the taking or the attempt to take any property of worth from another person, be this property in the care of, custody of, or control of that other person. Robbery is different from theft in that it involves the use of force, the threat of force, the use of violence, or the threat of violence to intimidate the victim or put the victim in fear for his/her safety.

Theft, on the other hand, concerns the taking of a person's property without the permission of the property owner or possessor of that property but does not involve threat, intimidation, or violence to the individual in possession of the property. A charge of theft is usually referred to as larceny and can be separated into two completely different charges with different penalties. The charge that is applied in any particular case depends on the value of the merchandise stolen or the amount of money stolen.



Petit larceny is the theft of merchandise under a certain amount of value or the theft of a sum of money under a certain amount.

Grand larceny is the theft of merchandise over a certain amount of value or the theft of a sum of money over a certain amount.

The sum or value that sets the dividing line between petit larceny and grand larceny is determined by the corresponding jurisdiction where the incident took place and varies from one area to another. In many jurisdictions, petit larceny is charged and penalized as a misdemeanor and grand larceny is charged and penalized as a felony. However, that depends on the jurisdiction and some areas consider theft a felony distinguished only by the degree or class of the felony.

Here's some info about how Oregon differentiates. My point is I'm not enough of an expert on Oregon Law to step into this kind of situation with a gun and shoot people unless there is a direct, immediate physical danger to myself or others.

Oregon State Theft Laws | eHow.com

So unless each person had stolen more than $1000 of goods it's second degree theft and a misdemeanor:
§ 164.045¹
Theft in the second degree

(1) A person commits the crime of theft in the second degree if:

(a) By means other than extortion, the person commits theft as defined in ORS 164.015 (Theft described); and

(b) The total value of the property in a single or aggregate transaction is $100 or more and less than $1,000.

(2) Theft in the second degree is a Class A misdemeanor. [1971 c.743 §124; 1987 c.907 §3; 1993 c.680 §19; 2009 c.11 §12; 2009 c.16 §2]

Because we do get to see this in hindsight, we can throw out theft right now. They had premeditated the burglary, the flash mob didn't go in and then decide to rob the place. Despite the fact it was burglary 2, you are right that the customers inside didn't know for sure that it was burglary vs theft (although it would be pretty obvious in my mind if 40 people came in and started to rob the place that it had to be premeditated and not just a huge coincidence), but they did know it was rioting because there were so many of them disrupting the public and terrorizing others. That alone is a felony, the burglary is just another felony on top of that. Even if the other customers had no idea that rioting or burglary were felony offenses, I believe that a force as large as 40 people trashing a store is considered an immediate threat to all the other customers, which is visible to me when I see how the employees and customers were acting during the burglary (ie in fear).

If you don't consider 40 people trashing a store, terrorizing others, and burglarizing (or even just stealing/committing theft) an immediate threat, what do you consider an immediate threat? Do they have to pull a weapon out? Do they have to draw blood? Do they have to physically touch you first?

 

[Burt Gummer]

No jury is going to believe a flash/theft mob is an immediate threat to your life. If you are crazy enough to pull your pistol out and fire on these people I hope you look good in stripes. You will make other CHL people look like vigilantes and idiots in the process.

You simply move aside and let them do their thing. In the future, these types of robberies will be very common so get used to it.

You weren't issued a CHL to play Batman or fill the shoes of a cop. Geezus - I understand the frustration - but you just CAN'T use a carry piece to play Judge Dredd.

 

[bikejunkie]

I'd have to see a direct threat of death or serious bodily harm to me or others before I'd decide to shoot someone. A bunch of punks trashing property is not enough for me to take a life over and put myself in economic jeopardy defending my actions in court. That's just me I guess. I don't take the ability to take a life as lightly as many on this board. I'm not meaning to imply you are a trigger happy knucklehead wanting to scratch the itch- and when in the store, in the moment, I can't say for sure what I'd do. Right now with the facts as they are I wouldn't have shot anyone. Just because you believe you are witnessing a riot and because a riot is a felony doesn't mean it's ok to start shooting folks. Believe me- I'd have loved to have busted some caps into the Occupy idiots and their riot/block party when they got thrown out of the parks...

 

[19 Adam]

Unfortunately since they didn't present an immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury (according to the story) you couldn't legally shoot any of them...

It's all in how you write the police report after the shooting. Nuff Said.

 

[FireFighterChen]

No jury is going to believe a flash/theft mob is an immediate threat to your life. If you are crazy enough to pull your pistol out and fire on these people I hope you look good in stripes. You will make other CHL people look like vigilantes and idiots in the process.

You simply move aside and let them do their thing. In the future, these types of robberies will be very common so get used to it.

You weren't issued a CHL to play Batman or fill the shoes of a cop. Geezus - I understand the frustration - but you just CAN'T use a carry piece to play Judge Dredd.

We all get to have opinions I believe a jury would believe a flash/theft mob is an immediate threat to someone's life. How easy can it turn from a flash mob to knock out king or pick em out and knock em out? The mentality is the same with these criminals, and it takes less than a second for the game to change.

Like I said earlier, no one here, not even me, is advocating to shoot someone over taking property. If the lady who was terrorized had pulled out a handgun in self defense and defended herself from multiple males in this felony crime, she would have the law behind her.

No one here is saying to play judge dredd (admittedly I do not know who this is...) or batman (even though he didn't use firearms) or a cop (even though they have no obligation to protect you as an individual per Warren vs District of Columbia). Not sure where you were coming from with that last sentence?? I open carry...so the reason I got my permission slip is because I get to be an exception to certain infringements with that permit, otherwise I would never have applied for my CHL/CCP.

I'd have to see a direct threat of death or serious bodily harm to me or others before I'd decide to shoot someone. A bunch of punks trashing property is not enough for me to take a life over and put myself in economic jeopardy defending my actions in court. That's just me I guess. I don't take the ability to take a life as lightly as many on this board. I'm not meaning to imply you are a trigger happy knucklehead wanting to scratch the itch- and when in the store, in the moment, I can't say for sure what I'd do. Right now with the facts as they are I wouldn't have shot anyone. Just because you believe you are witnessing a riot and because a riot is a felony doesn't mean it's ok to start shooting folks. Believe me- I'd have loved to have busted some caps into the Occupy idiots and their riot/block party when they got thrown out of the parks...

That works for you As it stands, neither of us were in that store, therefore there is no correct answer to "what would you do?" There are too many variables. But...legally speaking, with all the statues I have posted, I do not see how anyone could be convicted if they were to defend themselves against this mob, or defend the lady that was terrorized. I guess what I am trying to say is, I am not justifying the shooting of another, I am defending our right to defend ourselves when a felony is being committed. It's too easy for a mob like this to go from felony riot and felony burglary to murder or manslaughter. Mob mentality is a very dangerous aspect that sadly is becoming common place. I would hate to see a 2A advocate die because they were more worried about the legality of their self defense than their own life, especially in an instance that they would be completely justified in using deadly force.

 

[Burt Gummer]

Mob looting is now fairly a rarity. Such things will become commonplace as the economy sinks further into the toilet and more people take desperate measures to obtain such resources as food. When SHTF, all bets are off.

Get thicker skin because these type of things will be happening everyday, all around you.

Now they are just obnoxious punks. Later they will be starving, last-resort types doing whatever they can to eat.

Riots, mob robberies, looting, no cops in sight - you better adjust your mindset to see these as a very frequent occurrence in the not too distant future. What is considered over the top now will be a common everyday event then.

Make your priorities and concerns more closer to home.

 

[ob1]

Mob looting is now fairly a rarity. Such things will become commonplace as the economy sinks further into the toilet Riots, mob robberies, looting, no cops in sight - you better adjust your mindset to see these as a very frequent occurrence in the not too distant future. What is considered over the top now will be a common everyday event then.

For those of you who have spent some time overseas in areas where actual acts of terrorism are commonplace and expected, this won't won't come as any surprise.

The other "adjustment" people would need to make in this scenario is coping with everyday life having constant reminders that you are living in a "Security State".
These days we hear people grousing about granny getting a free grope at the airport by TSA and the ACLU being concerned about the concept of gubment surveillance cameras on public streets. In this forum. I have read posts about people who "freak", when they see a civilian "doing open carry" in a public place.

Take for example, a moderate threat area, like the Philippines. For years, they have been plagued by two entities, the "Peoples Army", your everyday marxist boy scouts and "Abu Sayaf", a Muslim separatist group with "Al Qaeda" ties. Every so often, you will hear of a bomb going off at a public place or the kidnapping of a tourist etc. The predictable public counter-measure to this is has been " Security Everywhere". Guards with guns at all public buildings, shopping malls, book stores, clinics, even at highway toll booths where you will notice camo wearing squads with slinged M-16's.

If Clackamas Town Center were in the "PI", every public entrance would be blocked off with two customer lines, one male and one female, where shotgun packing "mall guards" give everyone a thorough full body pat down and package search. Once inside, you might be confronted with additional armed "store guards" and a repeat of the mall door exercise. Most of the nicer neighborhoods are walled and gated with "neighborhood shotgun guards", if you live in the neighborhood, tip's for the guards are not optional.
For a while in this kind of setting, if you're a gun fancier, it's fun to engage in a game of "who's packing what kind of gun today", but it gets old fast.

If the current crop of politicians keep it up, I fear your scenario might be coming Burt....... but I hope not.

 

[bnz43]

The only thing that can be done about this problem is to build a Berlin style wall around their neighborhood to keep them in, and evey few weeks we toss a case of Chocolate Exlax over the wall .

 

[WhyteCheddar]

Relevant to the conversation or not at this point, but this happened over a month ago and several of the perps have been identified and apprehended. I doubt this will happen again, but since I am in this store several times a week, I will be a little more wary.
An interesting aspect of this case is that the police apparently broke up a drinking party that many of these 'youths' were a part of. So why were the under age drinkers allowed to remain on the street? Your guess is as good as mine at this point.

 

[Sincere]

An interesting aspect of this case is that the police apparently broke up a drinking party that many of these 'youths' were a part of. So why were the under age drinkers allowed to remain on the street? Your guess is as good as mine at this point.

For the same reason that cops didn't and shouldn't have arrested and booked you and all your friends drinking at parties in your "youth". Do you remember high school? college?

Because it's totally unnecessary and exactly what cops should NOT be doing. Call parents to pick them up, drive them home, knock on doors and give the parents grief, whatever... what the heck happened to America, kids drink and party, from Portland to Tuscaloosa, get over it.

If your kid got "caught" at a party with a beer, would you rather him be cuffed, stuffed and booked or would you rather be called to get him or have him dropped at your door for the shame and embarrassment?

I guess the next time you get a traffic ticket, the pigs should cuff you and throw you in a cell for the night because you just might break a law later.

 

[FireFighterChen]

For the same reason that cops didn't and shouldn't have arrested and booked you and all your friends drinking at parties in your "youth". Do you remember high school? college?

Because it's totally unnecessary and exactly what cops should NOT be doing. Call parents to pick them up, drive them home, knock on doors and give the parents grief, whatever... what the heck happened to America, kids drink and party, from Portland to Tuscaloosa, get over it.

If your kid got "caught" at a party with a beer, would you rather him be cuffed, stuffed and booked or would you rather be called to get him or have him dropped at your door for the shame and embarrassment?

I guess the next time you get a traffic ticket, the pigs should cuff you and throw you in a cell for the night because you just might break a law later.

I never drank while underage, nor did I go party where underage drinking was happening. I had better things to do with my time, such as baseball, shooting, etc. If my kid got caught drinking underage at a party he sure as **** can spend a night in jail, I'll be there in the morning to pick him up after he sobered up.

That is a good question...what DID happen to America? We used to stand up for what was right..not make excuses for people committing crimes.

 

[Sincere]

I never drank while underage, nor did I go party where underage drinking was happening. I had better things to do with my time, such as baseball, shooting, etc. If my kid got caught drinking underage at a party he sure as **** can spend a night in jail, I'll be there in the morning to pick him up after he sobered up.

That is a good question...what DID happen to America? We used to stand up for what was right..not make excuses for people committing crimes.

That's nice for you. You do know that plenty of us were able to play sports, get good grades and enjoy a party or two before we were 21, right?

Just to be clear, I never made an excuse for the kids who committed the crime. I just have problems with the notion that locking kids up for incredibly minor crimes is a solution (have you seen a county jail lately? You wouldn't want your kid there for drinking). I do understand the coulda-woulda-shoulda of that particular night though.

As far as what happened to America? Obviously a long story but I think a key point is the dissolution of real communities. We used to buy things from people who were our neighbors. We used to have open spaces and natural places to enjoy recreation with each other that were actual parts of our communities, not an hour drive away. We used to know the people who grew our food. We used to eat with the seasons. We used to know our neighbors. We used to have our elders live with us when the time came. Our police officers and politicians used to live in the neighborhoods they served. A lot used to be different...

... And it wasn't rap music, rock and roll or "flash-robs" that changed everything.

 

[FireFighterChen]

That's nice for you. You do know that plenty of us were able to play sports, get good grades and enjoy a party or two before we were 21, right?

Just to be clear, I never made an excuse for the kids who committed the crime. I just have problems with the notion that locking kids up for incredibly minor crimes is a solution (have you seen a county jail lately? You wouldn't want your kid there for drinking). I do understand the coulda-woulda-shoulda of that particular night though.

As far as what happened to America? Obviously a long story but I think a key point is the dissolution of real communities. We used to buy things from people who were our neighbors. We used to have open spaces and natural places to enjoy recreation with each other that were actual parts of our communities, not an hour drive away. We used to know the people who grew our food. We used to eat with the seasons. We used to know our neighbors. We used to have our elders live with us when the time came. Our police officers and politicians used to live in the neighborhoods they served. A lot used to be different...

... And it wasn't rap music, rock and roll or "flash-robs" that changed everything.

Yes I do realize kids have options...and I yes I do realize bad options existed since the beginning of time. I just wish bad options still held consequences... embarrassment and a slap on the wrist is not a consequence.

I guess it goes to show just how dedicated others were compared to me with the team...my team was state Championships my senior year, and at least in the state tournament the 3 years preceding. That took the majority of my time up, and my teams time up. Good grades, good athlete, good choices, yep that's what I am proud of.

I have done my fair share of visits to the county jail where I have close friends who work as guards. They keep hounding me to start a part time position out there, so yes, I have been there, and yes I feel if my kid was stupid enough to break the law he can suffer the consequences.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

2) While they may have been "rioting", you watch the raw footage and you tell me, which ones would you have shot?

If there's no one specific threat, start with the one closest to you . Not only is it the most convenient, but it also decreases the likelihood of a miss. :nuts:

 

[Burt Gummer]

I worry about some of you guys. Don't ever pull and shoot unless your life is in danger, period. Some punks pushing you aside to start grabbing six packs and chips does not a life threatening scenario make .....

You should be more concerned with what the authorities will do to you after the fact as well as the dumb punk's relatives suing you for everything you have, or will make, for life.

Just don't. Isn't right. Stop, think it through. For all you know one of the punks might be your neighbors kid. They don't think when they run in packs. Dumb youth doing stupid stuff because they feel all brave in a pack.

Restraint always. Albertsons is not your home; you cannot defend it. (Unless you are Al Bundy escaping the summer heat in the freezer aisle - anyone remember that one!? LOL)

Thank you for your cooperation in this matter.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

For all you know one of the punks might be your neighbors kid.

If you knew my neighbors kid, you would know how much this statement damages your argument.

 

[billstaf]

I really don't have any problem permanently removing some of these low-lifes from the gene pool. However, I also don't want to spend the rest of my life and money defending myself in court from a civil suit brought forth by some relative of the low-life I felt it necessary to remove. With that in mind, I also usually have a throw-away folding knife on me somewhere. Big enough to be a threat, cheap enough that I can afford to lose it when I plant it on the newly dead "attacker".

There does seem to be a racial element in these recent flash mobs. At least right now anyway. That is unfortunate because I am sure there are a lot of hard-working folks of all races that feel they and their race are being brought down by the actions of a few d**kheads in a flash mob.

If I should ever be in a store when something like a flash mob goes down, my carry weapon is coming out and being pointed directly at anyone who decides to come at me. I will hold fire until I decide that I am being threatened.