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Transporting firearms to and from the range w/o CHL

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by mb1911, Jun 3, 2014.

  1. mb1911

    mb1911 New Member

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    I'd like to check with you on how I can legally transport firearms to and from the range without a CHL. I will be relocating to Oregon soon -- specifically Portland -- and I am guessing it will take sometime before I get the CHL. If I need to go shoot an USPSA match before I get the CHL, how do I transport the guns?

    I checked Kevin Starrett's Understanding Oregon's Gun Laws and the Oregon Revised Statues, and I don't have a positive answer. The closest I get to is ORS 166.250 4(b), which seems to suggest, though it does not explicitly state, that people without CHL should lock up their handguns in a box while transporting the guns to the range. I gather that while in Portland, I'll have to make sure the magazines are kept separate from the guns, with no rounds inserted.
     
  2. mb1911

    mb1911 New Member

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    FYI, this is what I found --

    166.250 Unlawful possession of firearms.
    (4)(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this subsection, a handgun is readily accessible within the meaning of this section if the handgun is within the passenger compartment of the vehicle.

    (b) If a vehicle, other than a vehicle described in paragraph (c) of this subsection, has no storage location that is outside the passenger compartment of the vehicle, a handgun is not readily accessible within the meaning of this section if:

    (A) The handgun is stored in a closed and locked glove compartment, center console or other container; and

    (B) The key is not inserted into the lock, if the glove compartment, center console or other container unlocks with a key.​
     
  3. Hrethgir

    Hrethgir Beaverton, OR Active Member

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    I've always just unloaded them, put them into a case and put them in the trunk. Unloaded, secured and out of the passenger compartment, don't know what else could be done.
     
    Kid@Heart likes this.
  4. mb1911

    mb1911 New Member

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    I'm coming from another state, where provisions for transporting without a gun permit are spelled out in the law code. However, Oregon doesn't seem to have done the same. It's worrisome that, as Starrett's book points out regarding people without CHL: "if you are coming home from a gun store with a new firearm, in a box, unloaded, you are breaking the law."
     
  5. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    It's amazing how much more freedom you get with that little card. It's not even so much the state law, which is a bit less restrictive, it's the county and city laws and ordinances that make it worse. In Portland/Multnomah County, they classified personal vehicles as 'public places', making it a crime to have a loaded gun in a car, or even loaded magazines, even if they're not inserted into the gun. Portland/Mult Co have pushed the laws to the limit of what they can do under state law, which due to a preemption clause in the state constitution, prevents local counties and cities from crossing certain lines. The CHL is the one thing that really trumps them. It overrides the 'public place' issue even in Portland.

    I would make applying for that license one of your top priorities once you arrive in town, it will save a lot of hassle in the long run. Hopefully the wait won't be too long.

    Here are some additional things you may want to read - there's a good reason why so many folks on your other thread recommended locating your dwelling somewhere outside of Multnomah County:

    http://www.portlandonline.com/auditor/index.cfm?c=28514&a=332592

    http://www.katu.com/politics/Multnomah-County-tightens-its-gun-control-laws-204728251.html
     
    Don H likes this.
  6. mb1911

    mb1911 New Member

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    But BEFORE I get a CHL, it sounds like if I transport a gun in a locked box, with no ammo in the chamber or in the mag, with the mag out of the gun, I should be OK even if I'm driving from Portland to a range nearby?

    14A.60.010 Possession of a Loaded Firearm in a Public Place. -

    C. The following are exceptions and constitute affirmative defenses to a violation of this Section:

    11.
    Persons travelling to and from an established target range, whether public or private, for the purpose of practicing shooting targets at the target ranges.​
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2014
  7. mb1911

    mb1911 New Member

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    Wait, does a range count as a "public space"? Does this mean no shooting for me until I get the CHL?
     
  8. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    As I understand it, an established range is an exception. Not everyone I see at ranges in Portland have CHL's.
     
  9. Jamie6.5

    Jamie6.5 Western OR Well-Known Member

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    ORS makes exceptions to not having a CHL if one is engaged in, or traveling to/from a shooting range, or on a fishing and/or hunting trip.
    In any of these cases, Oregon state law allows you to concealed carry.
    If heading to/from a shooting range, I would carry a range brochure/schedule of events if there's a competition that day, your range membership card, and on retuning home, any documentation (like a receipt) that you were indeed at the range.

    Don't get the idea that you can get by with this exemption if you are just heading out to the woods to shoot though. Public land shooting is NOT shooting range practice in the eyes of the law.
    And don't stop and go shopping at the mall on your way to/from.

    http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/166.260

     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2014
    ocarolan likes this.
  10. 1337BaldEagle

    1337BaldEagle Earth Active Member

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    § 166.250¹

    Unlawful possession of firearms

    (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section or ORS 166.260 (Persons not affected by ORS 166.250), 166.270 (Possession of weapons by certain felons), 166.274 (Relief from prohibition against possessing or purchasing firearm), 166.291 (Issuance of concealed handgun license), 166.292 (Procedure for issuing) or 166.410 (Manufacture, importation or sale of firearms) to 166.470 (Limitations and conditions for sales of firearms) or section 5, chapter 826,



    Oregon Laws 2009, a person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a firearm if the person knowingly:

    (a) Carries any firearm concealed upon the person;

    (b) Possesses a handgun that is concealed and readily accessible to the person within any vehicle; or

    (2) This section does not prohibit:

    (a) A minor, who is not otherwise prohibited under subsection (1)(c) of this section, from possessing a firearm:

    (A) Other than a handgun, if the firearm was transferred to the minor by the minors parent or guardian or by another person with the consent of the minors parent or guardian; or

    (B) Temporarily for hunting, target practice or any other lawful purpose; or






    You cannot be arrested for Unlawful Possession of Firearms (which is inclusive of concealing openly having a firearm in a vehicle) if you are going to or from target practice or hunting. That is not to say that cities like Portland won't arrest you anyway. It is not to say that Portland wont try and prosecute you arguing that the state has given them means of restricting and making rules for those without CHL. But I doubt that any judge in Oregon would find a city ordinance valid over state law.

    I if you want to avoid the situation I would lock the pistol and the mags separate with no ammo in with the pistol. Have fun at ARPC?

    None of this is legal advice. Read the law and make your own judgment.



    Eagle

    Edit: formatting and correcting information
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2014
  11. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Y'all are over thinking it =).

    Keep the ammo in the boxes (no loaded magazines) and keep the firearms in cases.

    Like others have said, keep it in the trunk and I've never heard of anyone having issues with unloaded firearms out of thier reach in a vehicle.

    Assuming your not a felon or mental case, your good to go.
     
  12. mb1911

    mb1911 New Member

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    No, I'm not a felon. I have a permit from my home state. I am not a mental case either, although people have been warning me that Portland will turn me into a mental case. Thanks, guys!
     
    Joe13 likes this.
  13. RicInOR

    RicInOR Washington County Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    There are lots of people on forest land shooting who have no CHL.

    If you don't have a trunk - like a pickup, or station wagon - ensure the firearm is not within reach.


    Another thing to anticipate is what are the range rules?

    If you go into the 2 indoor ranges I use in PDX area, your firearm needs to be cased and unloaded when you enter their shop.

    If you go to TriCounty, their policy is no handling of your firearm on the property - except in the bays or safety table. This expressly means no gun handling in your car in the parking lot. So, the firearm needs to be unloaded, cased with no ammo on you or in the case - when you get there.
     
  14. 1337BaldEagle

    1337BaldEagle Earth Active Member

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    What most people don't know is that Oregon law protects you from being charged with unlawful possession of a firearm if you are in transit to or from "target practice." I would say that USPSA would qualify as such.

    Eagle
     
  15. Ligito

    Ligito Oregon Active Member

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    Unless, you are an Oregon City resident.o_O
     
  16. Kid@Heart

    Kid@Heart Vancouver, USA Cynic Lifetime Supporter Diamond Supporter

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    Somewhat true...

    Start Sarcasm---Not that I believe the Multnomah County Prosecutor would go after someone on a technicality. --Sarcasm Off.

    If you are on your way to an established target range, you are supposed to be exempt from the unlawful possession statute. You had better be on the most direct route between your residence and the target range.No side trips to pick up a friend to go with you or to put a little gas in the pickup. Those would be trips between your residence and a place other than the target range. Not protected.

    I am also not too sure about the statements about concealed carry being legal if you are going target shooting. I am pretty sure you shouldn't strap on the shoulder holster for a drive if you do not have a CHL.
     
  17. 1337BaldEagle

    1337BaldEagle Earth Active Member

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    "No side trips to pick up a friend to go with you or to put a little gas in the pickup... Not protected."

    I would find it hard to believe a judge would not throw it out. If you were your friends ride to the place of the said target practicing one could easily argue it's reasonable that the law is to encompass tasks that accommodate you ending up at your destination as so planned. "Reasonable" is the word we look for. Just like you can transport firearms through California that are banned in California as long as you are taking "reasonable" measures to go through the state without stopping to visit someone in the state. Your purpose must be that you are travailing through the state not staying for recreation. Again, it's about, is it reasonable and what is the law intended for. Did the law intend for you not to be able to pick up a friend or get gas, I would say there could be a good argument that the makers did not intend for the law to be used against a person who is picking up a friend while on the way to the gun range. That is not to say that laws can't be used in a manner for which they were not intended.

    "I am also not too sure about the statements about concealed carry being legal if you are going target shooting."

    I said that you could not be prosecuted for Unlawful Possession of a Firearm I did not say you couldn't be prosecuted for Carrying a Concealed Weapon which is a different offense with a much different penalty. But I am glad you said something that made me go back and look. Because we can learn something from this: Unlawful Possession is different than Carrying a Concealed Weapon. I had always assumed it was the same thing since within the language of Unlawful Possession it talks about being "concealed on ones person." Which is redundant. So, it appears that you may have a firearm loaded "readily accessible" when for " Temporarily for hunting, target practice or any other lawful purpose" when it is in your vehical as long as it is not "concealed upon the person." Only illegal of CC because of a redundant law.

    So I amend what I implied: if it is readily accessible but not concealed on your person it should be legal if you are going to or from target practice.


    Eagle
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2014
  18. 1337BaldEagle

    1337BaldEagle Earth Active Member

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    Ironically, I can find no acceptation at all to 166.240 Carrying of Concealed Weapons even for those with a CHL. In any case it goes to show how unorganized and crap our laws are.

    Eagle
     
  19. Kid@Heart

    Kid@Heart Vancouver, USA Cynic Lifetime Supporter Diamond Supporter

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    Reasonable? Multnomah County and the City of Portland?

    Surely you jest.


    Court Upholds Portland's Loaded Firearm Ban
    September, 2012

    http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/09/24/50550.htm

    (CN) - A sharply divided Oregon appeals court upheld Portland's ban on carrying loaded firearms in public, affirming a lower court's conviction of city resident on a pair of concealed weapons charges.
    Jonathan Christian was charged with carrying a concealed firearm without a permit, in violation of Oregon law, and of carrying a loaded firearm in a public place, in violation of a Portland ordinance.
    The district court convicted him on both counts, despite Christian's demurrer that the laws violated the Second Amendment.
    On appeal, the Oregon Court of Appeals affirmed the lower court's decision, and re-affirmed it en banc, finding that the Portland ordinance does not prohibit carrying all loaded firearms, only loaded firearms that recklessly endanger the public.
    "A violation of the ordinance occurs when a person (1) possesses or carries a loaded firearm in a public place; (2) knows that he or she is carrying or possessing the loaded firearm and that the place is public; (3) recklessly does so anyway, that is, is aware of the fact that carrying the loaded firearm in public creates an unreasonable, unjustifiable risk; and (4) nonetheless consciously disregards that risk and bears the firearm in a public place anyway," Judge David Schuman said, writing for the court.
    "It does not prohibit a person with a permit to carry concealed weapons from knowingly carrying a recklessly not-unloaded firearm in a public place. It does not prohibit a person from carrying a recklessly not-unloaded weapon in a public place in order to engage in justified conduct - reasonable defense of self against felonious attack," the judge continued.
    The court majority's opinion was predicated on its interpretation of the ordinance's use of the word "recklessly."

    You cannot carry a loaded firearm in Portland (or several other selected Bastions of Liberal Insanity like Lake Oswego) in a "Public Place" like your car without a CHL. People have had their firearms confiscated, been charged and convicted under this ordinance.


    I am not a lawyer, never was one, don't play one on TV. I do know the cops will assume the worst if they stop you and find an accessible handgun in your car. Unless you get pulled over in the driveway to Tri County Gun Club, how are you going to prove you were on your way to go target shooting? You can take that chance if you want, I wouldn't get on a forum and tell someone else it's okay.
     
  20. 1337BaldEagle

    1337BaldEagle Earth Active Member

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    166.173¹
    Authority of city or county to regulate possession of loaded firearms in public places

    (1) A city or county may adopt ordinances to regulate, restrict or prohibit the possession of loaded firearms in public places as defined in ORS 161.015 (General definitions).

    (2) Ordinances adopted under subsection (1) of this section do not apply to or affect:
    (a) A law enforcement officer in the performance of official duty.
    (b) A member of the military in the performance of official duty.
    (c) A person licensed to carry a concealed handgun.
    (d) A person authorized to possess a loaded firearm while in or on a public building or court facility under ORS 166.370 (Possession of firearm or dangerous weapon in public building or court facility).
    (e) An employee of the United States Department of Agriculture, acting within the scope of employment, who possesses a loaded firearm in the course of the lawful taking of wildlife. [1995 s.s. c.1 §4; 1999 c.782 §8; 2009 c.556 §3]



    The argument with the Portland case was whether the state gave Cities and Counties "expressed permission" to regulate firearms. ORS 166.173 does expressly give city and county permission. We would have never won that case. In the situation we spoke about earlier state law would actually be at odds with city law. State law would come out on top. The reason why we lost the Portland case is that there is no state law "affirming" that just anyone can carry anywhere, the reason why the Portland case doesn't effect CHL holders is because of state law trumping that of Portland's ordinance. Or at least that was my understanding.

    First, you don't have to prove your innocent. A procecuter must prove you are guilty. And second if you read my first post you can clearly see me say "this is not legal advice, read the law and decide for yourself."

    I also have alluded to what is law is not always what is followed. So, I guess, I really don't see my fault.



    Eagle
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2014