Training in Couples tactics

[SKN]

You're correct. There is no statutory language that specifies age, gender or physicality of threat, or armament. What's left is the perception of the potential victim. That said, if a 70yr old who has normal for the demographic fitness and mobility responds with CoM hits until the threat is on the ground or flees, to the "approach, shout, shove" by a 15yr old skinny vs a 6'4" 270# 25 year old, it's likely that event will come under considerable scrutiny no matter the locale. This may leave the defender at the mercy of the interpretations of the district attorney and a grand jury. They won't be making their judgement on "would'a, could'a" but "should'a" and on the recorded facts and articulation of jeopardy by the defender.

 

[American123]

You're correct. There is no statutory language that specifies age, gender or physicality of threat, or armament. What's left is the perception of the potential victim. That said, if a 70yr old who has normal for the demographic fitness and mobility responds with CoM hits until the threat is on the ground or flees, to the "approach, shout, shove" by a 15yr old skinny vs a 6'4" 270# 25 year old, it's likely that event will come under considerable scrutiny no matter the locale. This may leave the defender at the mercy of the interpretations of the district attorney and a grand jury. They won't be making their judgement on "would'a, could'a" but "should'a" and on the recorded facts and articulation of jeopardy by the defender.

Where I see a huge degree of variability is in the interaction and how it plays out which would determine if the shoot was justifiable or not in the eyes of the law. If the perp shoves the 70 year old and then remains at distance is different than if the perp shoved the 70 year old and then continued to press the attack after shoving them. People push eachother all the time without it becoming deadly encounters, but if the push was the initial assault that was subsequently followed by additional strikes, yeah that is getting further into the "can justifiably respond with deadly force" continuum.

The whole "what might the attorney and jury say" what if game is a rabbit hole. The law says what it classifies as justifiable homicide in regards to self defense and it would be the job of the defendant and the attorney representing them that the actions were clearly within those parameters. It would seem a few videos of old people getting punched by young people and falling and hitting their head to then later die or suffer serious damage, would be enough to suggest that acting in fear foe their life was a reasonable act given the circumstances.

 

[Zechariah]

Get a shotgun and a Rifle. Give the rifle to the best shooter. Stay put would be my advice to you at 70 and make sure it's legal cause prison is no place for a upper middle class couple. Only brisk away walk if your house is on fire... To be honest you probably won't make it at this point unless you have friends close so get some.
Sad people have to worry about a mob at your age. Read Reno's post as I thought it was sound advice. If you are anywhere near Portland I understand your fears cause it will be at your door step soon. Just a matter of time till they will come your way for stuff and (social justice).
For the record I don't condone violence, I'm not in a millitia, I'm not a lawyer, just exercising my rights to speak.

 

[huzar]

Civil proceedings are a crap-shoot.

I find it tacky that OR does not seem to publish a full document of its jury instructions; I have found those from other states to be educational.

Hey @Librarian,

Here's a link to the Oregon jury instructions, at least as they were back in 2009: http://www.oregonstatebar.org/_docs/legalpubs/tocs/UCrJIToc.pdf. There are newer versions on the Oregon State Bar website, but they're behind a paywall
And for those of you (like me) playing along in WA, here's a link to the WA state ones: https://govt.westlaw.com/wcrji/Index?bhcp=1&transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)

 

[Librarian]

Hey @Librarian,

Here's a link to the Oregon jury instructions, at least as they were back in 2009: http://www.oregonstatebar.org/_docs/legalpubs/tocs/UCrJIToc.pdf. There are newer versions on the Oregon State Bar website, but they're behind a paywall
And for those of you (like me) playing along in WA, here's a link to the WA state ones: https://govt.westlaw.com/wcrji/Index?bhcp=1&transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)

Yes, found that; that one is essentially 32 pages of the Table of Contents plus 1 page of example.

Contrast to CA's CalCrim doc - https://www.courts.ca.gov/partners/documents/calcrim-2021.pdf - 2500 pages.

I guess, if literacy is no longer a goal of education in OR (SB 744), it's probably OK to paywall useful info to keep all those non-lawyers in their (subordinate) places.

 

[Librarian]

I have email in to the Clackamas County Training Center on their classes; meanwhile, I'm reading my new books.

 

[titsonritz]

I have email in to the Clackamas County Training Center on their classes; meanwhile, I'm reading my new books.

Check this one out if you haven't already.

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/principles-of-personal-defense-jeff-cooper/1002978712

 

[Certaindeaf]

Check this one out if you haven't already.

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/principles-of-personal-defense-jeff-cooper/1002978712

Cooper's main contributions were his conditions of readiness spectrum/mindset, the Gunsite traning facility and his prolific philosophizing. I was lucky enough to have had a few of his books autographed.. a favorite is

To Ride, Shoot Straight and Speak the Truth

 

[Librarian]

Heard back from CCSO training center today

PST198 Tandems is rarely offered at this point. Over the last bunch of years, when we have offered it, it is usually canceled because of low enrollment. I do not know when it will next be offered.

I have asked how many students are needed for the class to 'go', but at least for now, this looks like an unlikely prospect.

They also require attending their whole series of CCW training classes before getting to Tandems; that's OK, but I'm not local, so every class would be a Big Production.

 

[titsonritz]

Heard back from CCSO training center today

I have asked how many students are needed for the class to 'go', but at least for now, this looks like an unlikely prospect.

They also require attending their whole series of CCW training classes before getting to Tandems; that's OK, but I'm not local, so every class would be a Big Production.

Skip all the BS and give Steve @Cerberus Group a call. Plan a couple day vaca, it is worth it.

 

[Librarian]

Heard back from CCSO training center today

I have asked how many students are needed for the class to 'go', but at least for now, this looks like an unlikely prospect.

They also require attending their whole series of CCW training classes before getting to Tandems; that's OK, but I'm not local, so every class would be a Big Production.

Just to update, class size would need to be 8, but ...

At this point, we are probably not going to go back to offering tandems .... Everyone shooting the class would have to attend and pass 101, 101A, and 102.

Did talk to Steve @Cerberus Group today.

 

[localbrew]

Just to update, class size would need to be 8, but ...

Did talk to Steve @Cerberus Group today.

What did Steve say? As for CCPSTC that would get expensive having to take all those courses

 

[SKN]

Just to update, class size would need to be 8, but ...

Did talk to Steve @Cerberus Group today.

Unless it has changed I believe one is still able to bypass the 101 and 101A classes, for direct admission to 102, thru successful completion of the qual courses for those classes. The bypass process was established to give those who considered themselves a experienced shooter the opportunity to meet the live fire standards of those training classes. You might inquire if this process is still in place and if it is it's probably by appointment only.

The timed tests were shot with the firearm in hand, in a single session and cold with no practice but with three chances to qualify. There was no cost for the test but a lane fee and ammo cost were applicable. If unsuccessful, one could return and test again after 30 days and as a courtesy the instructor overseeing the test(s) gave verbal feedback about what and how to practice. Violation of safe gun handling protocols or any of the four basic gun safety rules was automatically disqualifying. In the 12 years that I instructed there I administered those tests to maybe 6 clients. Only 1 qualified.

 

[BPOR11]

I don't know your thoughts on video, but it can be a useful tool, I believe.

There is a guy on YouTube with a channel called "Active Self Protection". There's a mountain of material, but the takeaway is how fast things can happen and how readily accessible your tools MUST be.

Hope it helps.

 

[Cerberus Group]

What did Steve say? As for CCPSTC that would get expensive having to take all those courses

What did I say? We went over daily load out, with some specifics on a few things, and how to evaluate some of the load out items.

Started into "reading the street", but have a ways to go with that. Like anything, a one time class or in this case, a phone call isn't going to make anyone an expert...going to take time and implementing training points.

 

[Cerberus Group]

I don't know your thoughts on video, but it can be a useful tool, I believe.

There is a guy on YouTube with a channel called "Active Self Protection". There's a mountain of material, but the takeaway is how fast things can happen and how readily accessible your tools MUST be.

Hope it helps.

We went over watching video.

YouTube has a settings feature where one can slow it to half speed, and pick up the difference between biological and human behavior...and learn the difference.

Turn the sound off, and watch one person at a time...several times, taking notes on behavior, movement etc before, during, and after the video incident. Then start applying what you see to the street.

 

[BPOR11]

We went over watching video.

YouTube has a settings feature where one can slow it to half speed, and pick up the difference between biological and human behavior...and learn the difference.

Turn the sound off, and watch one person at a time...several times, taking notes on behavior, movement etc before, during, and after the video incident. Then start applying what you see to the street.

Missed it, my apologies.

 

[Cerberus Group]

Missed it, my apologies.

You didn't miss it...you just jarred my memory of all we discussed.

 

[BPOR11]

YouTube has a settings feature where one can slow it to half speed, and pick up the difference between biological and human behavior...and learn the difference.

Did not know that, thanks!

 

[Librarian]

I don't know your thoughts on video, but it can be a useful tool, I believe.

There is a guy on YouTube with a channel called "Active Self Protection". There's a mountain of material, but the takeaway is how fast things can happen and how readily accessible your tools MUST be.

Hope it helps.

Just spent a couple hours on that channel! Thanks, a lot of good stuff there.

I'll need to curate a list for my wife to watch.