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For me buying a $600 ar is a bad move unless you never plan on upgrading it or putting any aftermarket features on it...otherwise its fairly inexpensive and more fun to build and assemble a quality piece
 
I am not a fan of the DI AR's, too dirty & cleaning is a biatch.

Piston are what I prefer, yeah. Cost is a factor for some but I feel we all have our preferences.

I dont begrudge you for being a fan of piston AR's. How ever the "two dirty and cleanings a biatch" is simply not true if you do even the slightest preventive maintenance. If you improperly shoot a AR dry, sure you get some super caked on carbon and gunk but if you simply oil the correct parts, as you should, after even a thousand rounds cleaning is a simple 5 minute process with the correct tools. Piston guns cost more, are heavier, most create carrier tilt issues and negate one of the AR's coolest attributes which is parts interchangeability .

Not to say I would not like to have a PWS piston AR , however Id put it up against my Noveske any time with no fear of who would win the day (or month or year)

Unless its a pistol, then the DI is problematic trying to do something beyond its design limits and piston away.....:)
 
I found that in a carbine that the weight gain was pretty minimal.

DI gas block is not much lighter than the piston block, so the main difference is the weight of the gas tube vs the weight of the piston and rod. In a carbine this is not huge, and my completed AA piston carbines are in the same weight range as DI builds using the same barrel profiles.

When you get to mid length and longer systems I felt that the additional weight further out on the barrel made the rifle slower in terms of swing speed. You can check this out for yourself at any gun shop that carries the Ruger SR556 and SR556C models - the carbine is much easier to move and the standard action because the additional mass is closer to the rifle's center of gravity.

DI is just fine with proper maintenance, so is a piston system.
 
I dont begrudge you for being a fan of piston AR's. How ever the "two dirty and cleanings a biatch" is simply not true if you do even the slightest preventive maintenance. If you improperly shoot a AR dry, sure you get some super caked on carbon and gunk but if you simply oil the correct parts, as you should, after even a thousand rounds cleaning is a simple 5 minute process with the correct tools. Piston guns cost more, are heavier, most create carrier tilt issues and negate one of the AR's coolest attributes which is parts interchangeability .

Not to say I would not like to have a PWS piston AR , however Id put it up against my Noveske any time with no fear of who would win the day (or month or year)

Unless its a pistol, then the DI is problematic trying to do something beyond its design limits and piston away.....:)

Next you'll probably say it's the ammo I'm using. ..
just my preference to have a piston over DID, no need to over analyze the issue.....
 
And I am not bashing piston guns, my lust for a PWS MK116 is quite real. I just take offense to DI bashing. I have put 10,000 rounds through a DI gun with the same BCG and barrel with the only malfunctions attributed to ammo. It irritates me to hear folks say they are dirty, unreliable platforms. They have there quirks but if you learn a bit about what they like there are no reliability or cleanliness issues with a AR
 
I dont begrudge you for being a fan of piston AR's. How ever the "two dirty and cleanings a biatch" is simply not true if you do even the slightest preventive maintenance. If you improperly shoot a AR dry, sure you get some super caked on carbon and gunk but if you simply oil the correct parts, as you should, after even a thousand rounds cleaning is a simple 5 minute process with the correct tools. Piston guns cost more, are heavier, most create carrier tilt issues and negate one of the AR's coolest attributes which is parts interchangeability .

Not to say I would not like to have a PWS piston AR , however Id put it up against my Noveske any time with no fear of who would win the day (or month or year)

Unless its a pistol, then the DI is problematic trying to do something beyond its design limits and piston away.....:)

Any gun that you have to keep dry or else it will collect dust and jam- then (on the reverse) you have oil it before you shoot it so it won't jam is a POS.
 
Any gun that you have to keep dry or else it will collect dust and jam- then (on the reverse) you have oil it before you shoot it so it won't jam is a POS.

You dont have to do either, It just makes it a pain to clean if you shoot it dry. My AR will cycle just fine with the lower full of mud. Unless something physically blocks the hammer or keeps the bolt out of battery it will cycle

Your car would run a ways without oil too, Does it make it a POS if it dies because you did not properly maintain it? Weapons require lubrication, pretty much all of them.
 
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You dont have to do either, It just makes it a pain to clean if you shoot it dry. My AR will cycle just fine with the lower full of mud. Unless something physically blocks the hammer or keeps the bolt out of battery it will cycle

Your car would run a ways without oil too, Does it make it a POS if it dies because you did not properly maintain it? Weapons require lubrication, pretty much all of them.

If the Russians came out with a car that could run without oil and was even more reliable than the cars currently being used (even if they were being used by the military) then yes, I would call said car a piece of S#$& when compared to the Russian car.

Granted, piston ARs are a HUGE step in the right direction. The heat is displaced and carbon build-up around the bolt carrier assembly is reduced...but the AR platform is still a high-maintenence girlfriend when compared to it's Russian mail-order bride counterpart. The HK416 is the best AR platform I've seen thus far...the rest of these AR-15s are nothing more than civilian M4s...having said that, you expect cars to upgrade, don't you? It's nice having WiFi, Bluetooth and OnStar but the AR-15 hasn't changed much within the last 40 years. If the car industry did that, they'd be be bankrupt!
 
Adding a piston to a AR is not an upgrade. It's a bastardization. Piston guns are great, if you want one buy one that was designed that way. Converting one makes about as much sense as converting an AK to DI. Using a piston system in a AR creates as many issues as it solves.

The only piston gun I have owned was a Adams, It went bang but as far as I was conserned there was no upside and plenty of down sides.

Scratch built and properly engineered piston AR's I'm sure are fine weapons, that does not make DI ones junk.

As I said I would really like to have a PWS MK116. It has a one peice piston BCG, still a bit of a basterd but a far cry better than most.

AK's are fine weapons, I own several. There is no question they are more bullet proof but that does not make them godlike and the AR junk. By that logic a new Toyota truck is a POS because a Ferrari is better.


What it comes down to me is the AR is more fun than my AK. I easily shoot a 1000 rounds of 5.56 for every round of 7.62x 39. It's kind of like driving a Toyota truck when you have a Ferrari
 
I was going to apologize for derailing the thread, but after reading this DI/piston slugfest, maybe it's getting us back or at least closer to the original track:

3MTA3, the LE6920 is 50% more expensive than the AR556, not twice as much -
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=445552681

So for your $900 example you could buy and upgrade the Ruger or have the stock Colt. I don't consider resale value when buying a car, but somehow they all get resold eventually, so the nameplate and resale history do turn out to be worth something. You can be sure the bargain Ruger is never going to hold its value.

Okay, I don't sell guns, so it doesn't matter. But why isn't the non-chrome barrel of the Ruger more accurate than the lined Colt? Is it just the author and his shaky sandbags, or is this another one of those Mini-14 drifting-POI flawed designs?

There are too doggone many choices for AR's, and I can't have them all. That's the dilemma right there.
 
The street price for the Colt is almost twice the street price of the Ruger. I don't think the Colt is twice the rifle of the Ruger. That said, what is the intended use of the rifle? Does it need to be 100% non-proprietary? Of course, as soon as you start to mod that Colt by, say, free floating the tube you now have proprietary parts. If I was looking at all standard AR parts rifle I'd only be looking at a Colt if I was going to resell later. For a rifle I'm going to keep I really don't want to pay an extra $200 for a name that doesn't provide me any functionality.

I think the Ruger gas block is a definite improvement over the standard one, and if it had been designed for lower pins it would be a great upgrade. I'd still prefer a picatinny gas block because I like HK style front sights that fold down when I'm using an optic.

Bottom line - for about $900 I'd take the Ruger, spend about a hundred on upgraded furniture, and spend the remaining $300 on ammunition or an optic over the Colt.

If it even has half the quality of the SR556 and for that matter the rest of the ruger firearms, you sure can't go wrong. A person as you sure know could build one for a good price, but It would be close when you get all said and done.
MY SR is totally match grade in accuracy. Not sure if the Di version is that good, but I doubt it would take much to make it that good.
Also the reason I chose the one SR model that did not have a chromed bore, is incase I need to lap that bore, it is nearly impossible with a chromed bore. Fortunately I did not have to touch this one.
I just like ruger and what they do all the way around.

I want another one of their little bearcats too, if I can find someone to barter with, for one ...... LOL
 
I was going to apologize for derailing the thread, but after reading this DI/piston slugfest, maybe it's getting us back or at least closer to the original track:

3MTA3, the LE6920 is 50% more expensive than the AR556, not twice as much -
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=445552681

So for your $900 example you could buy and upgrade the Ruger or have the stock Colt. I don't consider resale value when buying a car, but somehow they all get resold eventually, so the nameplate and history do turn out to be worth something. You can be sure the bargain Ruger is never going to hold its value.

Okay, I don't sell guns, so it doesn't matter. But why isn't the non-chrome barrel of the Ruger more accurate than the lined Colt? Is it just the author and his shaky sandbags, or is this another one of those Mini-14 drifting-POI flawed designs?

There are too doggone many choices for AR's, and I can't have them all. That's the dilemma right there.

I was following threads on other forums where AR556's were already showing up under $600. People expect to see these hit $550 or lower when it stabilizes. Even if you make it $600 for the Ruger and $900 for the Colt I still don't see the Colt matching the Ruger as a value proposition. For the current $320 delta you can still outfit the rifle a bit and buy a fair amount of ammo.

I'm not going to attempt to talk you out of the Colt if that is what you are set on, but when I start thinking $1000 on a DI rifle I'm going to build it so I get exactly what I want, and don't have to pay for parts I'm going to replace.

Chrome lined barrels aren't necessarily inaccurate, it's just harder to apply the chrome consistently from barrel to barrel. I'm personally a fan of melonite/nitrided barrels, but wouldn't turn my nose up at a chrome lined or unlined barrel. It's really all about intended use.

I'm also not so sure the Ruger as a breed isn't as accurate, in Erudine's excellent article you are still looking at a single rifle that may or may not be representative of it's breed. A $65 ACT or WMD combat trigger could make all the difference. It's not always the barrel.

To get to the real nitty gritty, what is the intended use for the rifle? 16" carbines excel as CQB rifles where the range is typically 50 to maybe 200 yards. Handling outweighs the difference between 1 and 2 MOA. If you want something longer range, then likely neither rifle is for you.
 
I dont begrudge you for being a fan of piston AR's. How ever the "two dirty and cleanings a biatch" is simply not true if you do even the slightest preventive maintenance. If you improperly shoot a AR dry, sure you get some super caked on carbon and gunk but if you simply oil the correct parts, as you should, after even a thousand rounds cleaning is a simple 5 minute process with the correct tools. Piston guns cost more, are heavier, most create carrier tilt issues and negate one of the AR's coolest attributes which is parts interchangeability .

Not to say I would not like to have a PWS piston AR , however Id put it up against my Noveske any time with no fear of who would win the day (or month or year)

Unless its a pistol, then the DI is problematic trying to do something beyond its design limits and piston away.....:)

Shoot an SR556 for a while then come back and tell us what you think.
I am 100% sold on mine. Smoothest thing I have ever fired
A slight front heavy but not that bad. Also a wide variety of loads can be accommodated with a quick adj.
I have had DI's and the best I had was a colt HBar, but I love this Ruger SR piston gun.
 
Well there are very few of the same model guns available in both piston and DI. It seems like a relevant discussion. And I would hardly call it a slug fest. I think properly designed piston guns are at the very least interesting and quite possibly superior, at least equal to there DI counterparts. My issue is dismissing the DI guns as dirty, POS unreliable guns as its simply not true..

The Ruger SR556 retails for $1995. The AR556 for $749

The SR piston gun weighs 7.9 pounds, the AR DI gun 6.5.

My view is why would you spend over twice as much for a gun that weighs 15% more and takes non standard parts? Because all the cool kids are?

The DI M-16 is the most accurate and reliable duty rifle ever issued by the US military. I read that on the internet so it must be true.;)

SWAT magazine has a project rifle they call "Filthy 14" It is a AR that currently has over 40,000 rounds though it, Its been cleaned once at 26K rounds. In that time they have replaced less than $100 worth of wear parts (springs mostly but they did break a bolt) That is not an anomaly, That is what a little bit of oil does to the rifle. The AR DI platform is solid, The piston hype is a solution in search of a problem. There is nothing wrong with a piston gun, Its just not necessary to have a reliable rifle and thinking that it is somehow required to turn the AR platform into a reliable platform is asinine


I think Ruger coming out with a DI gun that is less than half the cost of the SR556 is a great move. It puts a Ruger logo on a rifle more folks can afford and I suspect that it will outsell the SR series over time.
 
Shoot an SR556 for a while then come back and tell us what you think.
I am 100% sold on mine. Smoothest thing I have ever fired
A slight front heavy but not that bad. Also a wide variety of loads can be accommodated with a quick adj.
I have had DI's and the best I had was a colt HBar, but I love this Ruger SR piston gun.

I didn't see your post until after I just finished bashing your rifle, It wasn't directed at you. Ive shot a SR556, Its a nice rifle. My reply would be bring your SR556 to the range and we will shoot it side by side with my Noveske.

I wouldn't turn down a SR556 if the price was right though.

I dont know if I am the right or wrong person to be making these arguments. I am a "AR guy" Ive probably owned 40 over the last 30 years and currently have 12 and they are really the only thing I shoot anymore. I am not any sort of expert but I do have a soft spot for them.
 
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