To restore or not to restore - Schearzlose 1908/09

[goatpower]

Hey everyone. I was hoping to get an opinion from my peers here on the board.

About a year ago, I got a steal of a deal on a Schwarzlose model of 1908 (or 1909 depending on who you ask). Finidng one has been my quest for the Holy Grail and I'm excited to finally have one in my collection.

That said, it is in rough shape. If it ever had any finish on it, it is completely gone. It has been heavily used and abused over its long life. Most function seems OK but it does not fire (light primer strikes, weak mainspring maybe) but everything else seems mechanically functional. All numbers match and all parts are present. Magazine is in similar condition as the pistol so I assume that it is original to the pistol - no markings on the magazine.

I have a bit of a desicion to make: either leave it in the condition that it is and it becomes a display piece or have it professionally restored and it becomes a shoot 25 shots a year / display piece.

I would rather have it in original condition, however, I also want it functional. BUT I also do not want to ruin the value. I would only use a highly reputable restoration shop such as Turnbull (or similar - any recommendations?)

I know I am demanding a lot.

What do you guys think? What would you do with it?

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[66PonyCar]

They are very rare and the few I've seen are in about the same condition as yours. If you restore it then you would likely decrease its collector value. Probably the sum of the original cost and restoration cost will exceed its value afterwards. Personally I would replace the springs and leave it at that. That's my 2 cents!

 

[Lilhigbee]

They don't seem to be especially valuable(<$1K) or particularly rare (~10K made), so I'd say if you want a nice example go ahead and have it restored. Just keep a realistic expectation of the value after it is restored and realize it probably won't be worth the cost of restoration. Or keep your eyes open for a nicer example and buy it for less than the cost of restoring this one. there is one on GunsAmerica right now for $995 with WWII import paperwork;
Schwarzlose 1908 Blow forward pistol for sale
And a pair at Rock Island Auctions last year with an estimated value of $900-$1300. Not sure what they sold for.
Rock Island Auction: Two Schwarzlose Model 1908 Pistols

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

JMHO, on this one I would repair but not refinish. That being said, it's yours so do with it what you want. And if anyone says you shouldn't touch it, offer to sell it to them so they can own it and than they can do with it what they want.

 

[goatpower]

...Personally I would replace the springs and leave it at that. That's my 2 cents!

A good two cents, honestly. I haven't really considered that due to the fact the mainspring is fairly unique and that controls the trigger, hammer, safety and magazine release. I will, however, start looking for replacements out there.

Good advice, thank you.

They don't seem to be especially valuable(<$1K) or particularly rare (~10K made), so I'd say if you want a nice example go ahead and have it restored. Just keep a realistic expectation of the value after it is restored and realize it probably won't be worth the cost of restoration. Or keep your eyes open for a nicer example and buy it for less than the cost of restoring this one. there is one on GunsAmerica right now for $995 with WWII import paperwork;
Schwarzlose 1908 Blow forward pistol for sale
And a pair at Rock Island Auctions last year with an estimated value of $900-$1300. Not sure what they sold for.
Rock Island Auction: Two Schwarzlose Model 1908 Pistols

I disagree a bit... I don't think they are particularly valuable, I have just always found the (albeit) finicky design fascinating.

That said I have seen them go for shockingly low prices to outrageously high prices.
Good example: RARE and Important Schwarzlose Model 1908 "Blow-Forward" Pistol in .32 acp
Doubt anyone will ever pay that much...

Seems like the market is extremely volatile with these items at the moment. In the past 2-3 years I've seen decent ones sell for $600, ridden hard and put away wet train-wrecks for almost $1300 and the one really nice one I mentioned previously for about $2200.

Again though, I don't think they are worth that. Just seems that people are willing to pay ridiculous prices for them now days. Similar to the Frommer Stop pistols (full size and "baby"). I got my baby for like $200 (might have been a little more, I don't quite remember) at a gun show about five years ago. I saw one with bids over $1200 in the past year.

A rock is worth nothing unless some fool pays thousands of dollars for it.

ANYWAYS, I should have also mentioned that I never intend to sell this item so the restoration would be for me and not for re-sale value. That said, I would have an extremely hard time paying five times the price I paid for the gun in restoration. Turnbull is the only option I know of, does anyone know of any other options that would restore something like this?

 

[66PonyCar]

Here are pictures of one in the NRA Firearms Museum.

NRA Museums:

 

[goatpower]

JMHO, on this one I would repair but not refinish. That being said, it's yours so do with it what you want. And if anyone says you shouldn't touch it, offer to sell it to them so they can own it and than they can do with it what they want.

That is two for repair and not restore...

Anyone have a line on the M1908 mainsprings? Haha.

 

[66PonyCar]

I disagree a bit... I don't think they are particularly valuable, I have just always found the (albeit) finicky design fascinating.

I collect early semi auto pistols. Since semi auto pistols were new in that era, I find it interesting to see how each designer solved the self-loading process. Some designs were dead ends but others endure to this day. You have ungainly designs like the C96 Mauser and the C93 Borchardt and then you have the Colt 1903 design by Browning which is very sleek and stylish (in my eyes).

 

[66PonyCar]

Yeah, springs are going to be tough to come by. Maybe Wolf will do a special run for you!

 

[Certaindeaf]

Those pictures are pretty worthless.. microscopic.
I'd refinish a shooter that I personally had chosen to make so.
From what I can see of the pics, I'd just leave that thing alone.. unless you want to make it your shooter/beater.. but then again, you can shoot/beat it as is..

 

[aksu747]

That is two for repair and not restore...

Anyone have a line on the M1908 mainsprings? Haha.

Numrich Gun Parts would probably be your best bet, if they don't have anything I have no idea where to begin.
Interesting gun though one of the few blowforward designs.

 

[11Charlie]

@Medic! would be a good one to ask. I don't have a clue on the value so I am no help. @Velzey I'm sure could do the restore job if you choose to do so.

 

[goatpower]

I collect early semi auto pistols. Since semi auto pistols were new in that era, I find it interesting to see how each designer solved the self-loading process. Some designs were dead ends but others endure to this day. You have ungainly designs like the C96 Mauser and the C93 Borchardt and then you have the Colt 1903 design by Browning which is very sleek and stylish (in my eyes).

You and I have similar interests sir. I have a turn of the century C96 and the thing is great... but it's so complex. I think I would have an easier time learning Braille than memorizing how it disassembles and reassembles. That said, there is only one screw in the whole gun - always impressed by that nifty feature. Not to mention the craftsmanship is insane.

I would greatly prefer a Colt 1903 based purely on aesthetics. Although the big downside of that model is ammunition cost and availability. Found one about the same time I was looking at my C96... went with the Broomhandle. It was less than half the price of the Colt. I REALLY like the Colt 1907 which is basically the 1903 but in 45 ACP... they aren't safe to shoot though unfortunately. The blueing on those things is like a mirror if they have aged well.

Yeah, springs are going to be tough to come by. Maybe Wolf will do a special run for you!

Funny enough, I think I will e-mail them. Worst they can say is "no."

Those pictures are pretty worthless.. microscopic.
I'd refinish a shooter that I personally had chosen to make so.
From what I can see of the pics, I'd just leave that thing alone.. unless you want to make it your shooter/beater.. but then again, you can shoot/beat it as is..

My bad - I noticed that after I uploaded them. I'll try to re-upload those tonight.

I'm still on the fence about it. I would like to shoot it, but not a lot - definitely don't want to beat it. It has seen better days as it is.

 

[66PonyCar]

I do have a C96 Mauser and a 1903 Colt in my collection. The Borchardt is out of my price range.

 

[jmh119]

Speaking for myself, i too would repair and not restore. I agree that Wolf would be a good place to check for springs. I know they make spring kits for Lugers...
Good luck!

 

[Velzey]

Has all the blue been polished off? It's hard to tell from the photos.
Anyhow there are springs available, and firing pins. I've worked on a couple of them.
Wolff won't do a special run unless your ordering 1000 pcs, but no worries original new springs are out there. Along with other replacement parts.

 

[goatpower]

Has all the blue been polished off? It's hard to tell from the photos.
Anyhow there are springs available, and firing pins. I've worked on a couple of them.
Wolff won't do a special run unless your ordering 1000 pcs, but no worries original new springs are out there. Along with other replacement parts.

My apologies again for the bad pictures.

The blue has not been polished off - or I should say, I see no evidence of the blue being removed.

Good to know there are parts floating around, where would you recommend I keep an eye out? GunBroker I assume would be one.

 

[goatpower]

Image sizes fixed.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

I understand that you said that there is no evidence of the blue being polished off...but there appears to be no blue at all...even in the "low" spots , that don't get a lot of wear....
To my eye it looks to have been polished , the gun just looks to "smooth" and way to even in its wear...that said...

I'd think hard 'bout researching just how it looked when new / how it was a originally blued / finished and think again 'bout a re-finish....depending on just what you it for...
Do you want a shooter , a collectors piece or just a example of this type of pistol...?

Any internals that need replacing , I would do ...if I wanted a shooter.
All with the knowledge that any work you do , will affect the value , most likely downwards , to most purist collectors.

Does this pistol have historic value..?
As in was it used by famous person , used at a famous battle , things like that...
That may also play a part in what to do....
Andy

 

[66PonyCar]

After viewing the larger images, it does look like it has been polished. At least the markings appear to be intact. I like the Schwarzlose machine gun image on the rear of the slide.