To register with ATF or not?

[TTSX]

thank you for your insight about @TTSX. however, perhaps you missed the point. I happily take care of my home and all the work that is required. maybe i missed the point of a forum. I kind of thought it was a place where people shared what they know. most on this thread seem to understand that too.

while i appreciate your participation, i am not sure that it added anything to the thread. thanks again.

And I'm not sure your thread added anything to this forum. You're welcome.

 

[123vin]

And I'm not sure your thread added anything to this forum. You're welcome.

perhaps not. i was certainly helpful to me and that was the point right? thanks again.

 

[asiparks]

I am looking for input on the ATF pistol brace decision:

When is the deadline for the "grace period" to register formerly known as "pistols" to SBR's, or has it passed?

Should one do that in the first place or just keep movin on?

Should one replace any and all pistol braces with better functioning stocks?

Anyone buying up old pistol braces?

Any help with these questions would be appreciated!

Whether you do should be a choice for you alone
I've submitted mine.
I would have happily kept them as braced pistols, but as they are, at least for the moment, SBRs so I filed a couple of weeks ago.
.
In practical terms, there are between 3,000,000 and 40,000,000 braced pistols out there, with little way to tell who has put what brace on what pistol, so the BATFE have neither the will or the resources to come knock on your door and cart you /your guns away.
Many millions are simply going to quietly disappear with little consequence, some intentionally and some due to the ton of people who still seem unaware of this ruling.

I like to shoot at public ranges. In the 20 years I've been doing that, no one has ever shown interest in seeing my suppressor stamps or what I'm shooting other than to have a go. I don't expect any one to ask to see my SBR paperwork either, but it's not a zero chance and I could do without the excitement that might ensue.

This rule may well get struck down before the May31st deadline, or it might swirl in litigation for years. Anyone who says they know what will happen in that scenario, doesn't, regardless of how many YouTubes they post.
My "hope" is that the approvals will still stand even if the rule is struck. If they don't, then we're basically back to where we were, having "braced" pistols and the choice of doing a regular $200 form 1.

I'm replacing a few braces with stocks, but honestly most of the SBA3s or SB sliders I have are a match for my level of shooting, so I'm not going all in. As far as buying up braces, who knows where the market for them will be by Summer. If the rule stands, most will be worthless - why buy them when it'll turn most firearms into something you'd have to SBR and factory stocks are often cheaper.
If the rule gets struck down then people will probably start buying them again. Roll of the dice basically.

The actual e form is very, very easy. 1 passport photo of yourself, maybe a photo of the serial number ( apparently not required, but why not spend the 5 seconds it takes), some fingerprints and 10 mins of online form filling. No engraving lowers, you can put on a stock, add a vertical fore grip once approved and no $200 fee. If you want to sell it, take off the brace/stock and it's just a non NFA pistol again....

 

[CZP07]

Whether you do should be a choice for you alone
I've submitted mine.
I would have happily kept them as braced pistols, but as they are, at least for the moment, SBRs so I filed a couple of weeks ago.
.
In practical terms, there are between 3,000,000 and 40,000,000 braced pistols out there, with little way to tell who has put what brace on what pistol, so the BATFE have neither the will or the resources to come knock on your door and cart you /your guns away.
Many millions are simply going to quietly disappear with little consequence, some intentionally and some due to the ton of people who still seem unaware of this ruling.

I like to shoot at public ranges. In the 20 years I've been doing that, no one has ever shown interest in seeing my suppressor stamps or what I'm shooting other than to have a go. I don't expect any one to ask to see my SBR paperwork either, but it's not a zero chance and I could do without the excitement that might ensue.

This rule may well get struck down before the May31st deadline, or it might swirl in litigation for years. Anyone who says they know what will happen in that scenario, doesn't, regardless of how many YouTubes they post.
My "hope" is that the approvals will still stand even if the rule is struck. If they don't, then we're basically back to where we were, having "braced" pistols and the choice of doing a regular $200 form 1.

I'm replacing a few braces with stocks, but honestly most of the SBA3s or SB sliders I have are a match for my level of shooting, so I'm not going all in. As far as buying up braces, who knows where the market for them will be by Summer. If the rule stands, most will be worthless - why buy them when it'll turn most firearms into something you'd have to SBR and factory stocks are often cheaper.
If the rule gets struck down then people will probably start buying them again. Roll of the dice basically.

The actual e form is very, very easy. 1 passport photo of yourself, maybe a photo of the serial number ( apparently not required, but why not spend the 5 seconds it takes), some fingerprints and 10 mins of online form filling. No engraving lowers, you can put on a stock, add a vertical fore grip once approved and no $200 fee. If you want to sell it, take off the brace/stock and it's just a non NFA pistol again....

This.

 

[Rkangel]

I like to shoot at public ranges. In the 20 years I've been doing that, no one has ever shown interest in seeing my suppressor stamps or what I'm shooting other than to have a go. I don't expect any one to ask to see my SBR paperwork either, but it's not a zero chance and I could do without the excitement that might ensue.

That hasn't been my experience. I've witnessed a drastic increase in aggressive "Range Karens" the last few years, who have demanded stamp papers or expelled shooters if they felt a pistol brace was "too close to" or "too sporadically touching" a shoulder. Their range, their rules I suppose, provided it was only coming from overbearing RSOs. But when it is also coming from patrons toward other patrons, there is a problem, and that range doesn't need any more of my money supporting their paranoia.

SBR it if you want to be legit. But I wouldn't count on anonymity or being left alone at ranges much longer.

 

[123vin]

Whether you do should be a choice for you alone
I've submitted mine.
I would have happily kept them as braced pistols, but as they are, at least for the moment, SBRs so I filed a couple of weeks ago.
.
In practical terms, there are between 3,000,000 and 40,000,000 braced pistols out there, with little way to tell who has put what brace on what pistol, so the BATFE have neither the will or the resources to come knock on your door and cart you /your guns away.
Many millions are simply going to quietly disappear with little consequence, some intentionally and some due to the ton of people who still seem unaware of this ruling.

I like to shoot at public ranges. In the 20 years I've been doing that, no one has ever shown interest in seeing my suppressor stamps or what I'm shooting other than to have a go. I don't expect any one to ask to see my SBR paperwork either, but it's not a zero chance and I could do without the excitement that might ensue.

This rule may well get struck down before the May31st deadline, or it might swirl in litigation for years. Anyone who says they know what will happen in that scenario, doesn't, regardless of how many YouTubes they post.
My "hope" is that the approvals will still stand even if the rule is struck. If they don't, then we're basically back to where we were, having "braced" pistols and the choice of doing a regular $200 form 1.

I'm replacing a few braces with stocks, but honestly most of the SBA3s or SB sliders I have are a match for my level of shooting, so I'm not going all in. As far as buying up braces, who knows where the market for them will be by Summer. If the rule stands, most will be worthless - why buy them when it'll turn most firearms into something you'd have to SBR and factory stocks are often cheaper.
If the rule gets struck down then people will probably start buying them again. Roll of the dice basically.

The actual e form is very, very easy. 1 passport photo of yourself, maybe a photo of the serial number ( apparently not required, but why not spend the 5 seconds it takes), some fingerprints and 10 mins of online form filling. No engraving lowers, you can put on a stock, add a vertical fore grip once approved and no $200 fee. If you want to sell it, take off the brace/stock and it's just a non NFA pistol again....

Thank you for your thoughts and opinions. I too enjoy public shooting and don't need the grief.

 

[GrayGoose]

I still have to laugh that people trust the BATFE after they told the maker and the buyers that braces were legal then flip flops. What's the next flip flop?

Forced reset triggers, solvent traps, 80% lowers..., maybe binary triggers are next?

 

[Jay Walk]

40 Million braced pistols?

I have to call BS on that one.

 

[Nutty4Guns]

Forced reset triggers, solvent traps, 80% lowers..., maybe binary triggers are next?

We just need to identify all triggers as non-binary. They'll be good to go then.

 

[Rkangel]

I still have to laugh that people trust the BATFE after they told the maker and the buyers that braces were legal then flip flops. What's the next flip flop?

Yep! And they did this without authority, on legally owned, unregulated items. Imagine what can happen with registered items...and your name and address....


It bears repeating until it sinks in for those who still aren't getting it: A tax stamp does not protect your rights, or guarantee your future ownership. At best, it is a temporary permission slip. It is NOT a magic contract that prevents confiscation, agency harassment, bans, or jail time. If a current or future administration deems guns, including SBRs, illegal, then the stamp won't mean anything...except maybe act as a radar beacon if things take a serious turn for the worse.

If you know what you are getting into and still want to proceed with a stamp, go ahead. It is still a free-ish country...though it is highly ironic that we will beg for permission to own something that is our right to own... Doesn't really sound like freedom after all, does it?

As others have said, the choice is up to you. In the current political atmosphere, there will be significant consequences with either decision.

 

[CamoDeafie]

As others have said, the choice is up to you. In the current political atmosphere, there will be significant consequences with either decision.

So... basically.. "why bother?" It's not like they're not gonna figure out where you live, what you own by using data from credit purchases, 4473s, online presence, "show your firearm" threads....

 

[CamoDeafie]

There are rare cases where the ATF and DOJ have gone after people for their registered NFA items.. and massively more more cases where the ATF, local LEOs, State agencies have gone after people for "unregistered NFA" items, some quite spectacularly (Ruby Ridge). That said; in this current time of history... erring on the side of caution and taking advantage of the tax amnesty and then trusting the Courts to handle things... can be a better option than to publicly say you're not complying and continuing what you're doing, maybe even give a big middle finger to them and actually turn the firearms into SBRs by getting real stocks...

 

[asiparks]

40 Million braced pistols?

I have to call BS on that one.

you're probably quite right, no one seems to know.
ATF reckoned 3 million, other estimates based on SBA's sales, then extrapolated to include other manufacturers came up with the rather broad 10-40 million.
Someone on one of the forums pointed out that not that many ARs have been sold in the US, then someone else suggested PPCs, AKs, Brens, Gail Aces can also have braces...
Whatever the number, I'm expecting a low % to register.
Some will wait for the rule to get binned, some won't file as an act of civil disobedience, a chunk will mean to, but never quite get round to it and a lot of "not-really-gun-person-but-everyone-else-is-getting-one" AR pistol owners, who don't follow gun forums, won't because they don't even know about it.

There's a good chance you will suffer zero consequences from not registering, but I personally don't like to tempt fate.

 

[CamoDeafie]

The NSSF estimates that there are 24+ million "Modern Sporting Rifles" in circulation since 1990, not just AR rifles but also AKs and variants of other rifles. However it does not account for stripped lowers sold as "other", pistol/firearm configured firearms, smoothbore 12ga firearms, or 80%s assembled into either rifle or pistol configurations. Some people think the actual number of AR based firearms as a whole is over 100 million and the actual numbers of total firearms is way over 400 million.

 

[asiparks]

So... basically.. "why bother?" It's not like they're not gonna figure out where you live, what you own by using data from credit purchases, 4473s, online presence, "show your firearm" threads....

^^ this ^^

I'd rather be a trackable online person seen following the law, than a trackable online person suggesting I'm going to be owning non-registered NFA items.

If I have any weapon transferred via a 4473 then the BATFE knows I have it. If it was post August 2015, in Oregon, then it knows I still have it- unless I transferred via another 4473. Me adding it to a form 1 makes zero difference. 4473s are "destroyed", but there is nothing preventing all that information being transcribed to any other data base.

 

[Jay Walk]

I have heard the 20 Million assault weapons number thrown about, I know lots of people with AR's but nobody that has bothered with a pistol brace.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

We know that SB tactical alone has sold at least 3 million braces. Arguing about how many millions are out there is a waste of time. It simply does not matter. Whatever the number is, it's orders of magnitude higher than the 200,000 stun guns which were considered arms in common use by the courts in Caetano.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Re risk of confiscation vs. benefits of having it registered, if OP wanted to hedge his bets he could have 2 AR pistols instead of one. One registered and one not. The registered one allows use at ranges etc. without worrying about prosecution whereas the other one (which could be a just a lower fe) is less on the radar.

I think there are probably 4 main factors regarding confiscation risk (assuming there is an ever-increasing desire by Gov to eliminate all guns in civilian hands):

1) Use in mass shootings
2) Gov knowing where they are
3) Time
4) 2nd ammendment

1) If registered sbrs are used in mass shootings this will increase the pressure for confiscation of those guns. On the other hand, if Gov (meaning politicians) consider registered guns as less threatening than similar guns that are not registered, they will go after every other "scary" gun first.

2) Gov. knowing where they are is probably the biggest risk factor for registering IMO. If gov wants to ban certain guns they will know where yours are if they are registered. So one way to deal with that is don't register any guns you cannot someday afford to lose. This is a case where having more guns is better assuming some are not registered.

3) Assuming increased pressure for confiscation will continue over time, we need to look at that relative to our lifetime and where we want the guns to go when we are gone. One could make the case that SBR registration may help protect it in the short term or long term. Also one could make the case for opposite. We simply don't know what the future holds other than looking at the past such as the machine gun registry and ban and keeping in mind the current (and likely continuing imo) political climate.

4) 2nd amendment overrides all of the above but it depends on who is on the supreme court at the time we are considering (fe our lifetime vs inheritor's lifetimes).

It seems to me that if you have one gun the choice to register or not is much harder. If you had 2 guns, one registered and one not, then you may have increased risk of losing that one gun. Even having just an extra lower gives some flexibility because we will likely see things like banning less than 16" barrels coming, which allows one to buy that stuff before the ban.

All just my thoughts on it as things sit today FWIW.

 

[Nwcid]

I know lots of people with AR's but nobody that has bothered with a pistol brace.

I do not disagree with what you said. On the flip side, I know many people that have several braced guns.

 

[Rkangel]

So... basically.. "why bother?" It's not like they're not gonna figure out where you live, what you own by using data from credit purchases, 4473s, online presence, "show your firearm" threads....

If the only reason a person registers an SBR is for the hope they won't make you a felon in the future, disappointment is around the corner. If a person hopes they aren't already on someone's list, disappointment is also around the corner. They are already systematically criminalizing everyone. Agencies have been weaponized against the American people. Congress is having hearings on this very fact. Nothing has changed my opinion that consequences are coming regardless of which choice we make.