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Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by imhear, Jan 1, 2011.
True. Tax stamp needed.
Pistols are not allowed to have a Vertical grip...
A vertical grip turns it into an AOW, a private citizen wanting to make an AOW requires an ATF form 1 and $200
do you happen to know the ordinance code or law code so i may look into this further as i was told from another poster's comment that an older bill has lapsed so that there is no need to file a form 1 or pay the 200.
Thank you for your info
I believe AOW tax stamp is only $15.
But I believe with vertical grip this makes it a SBR which would be a $200 stamp.
I may be wrong though.
Wrong again. $5 is the transfer tax for an AOW, $200 is for a non FFL/SOT to manufacture.
And once again, the VFG makes in an AOW according to the ATF.
ATF Seattle field office. Give em a call.
there is no sunset clause written into the code, and there has been no Notice
of Proposed Rulemaking posted in the Federal Register of late which affects the
pre-existing federal laws governing Title 2 firearms.
If I take a side by side shotgun, cut the stock off into a pistol grip and cut the barrels down to 8", is that an AOW?
Not as stoooooopid as an 11" FAL
Those things are super lame!
imhear, stitchclimber and waltermitty are correct. Doesn't sound like yotehunter is in the know and NorthernBornRebel doesn't have a clue.
In order for you to legally add a forward vertical grip to your PLR16 it will need to be registered as an AOW (Any Other Weapon) or an SBR (Short Barreled Rifle). For you, an individual, both require you to pay a $200 tax for the "making" of the "firearm" (as it has to do with the NFA).
The AOW can have your vertical grip, but no buttstock. The SBR can have both. Score one for the SBR.
Now, if you ever go to sell the "firearm" you have "made" ya gotta jump through all the paperwork hoops either way, but the "transfer tax" on an AOW is only $5 and the "transfer tax" on the SBR is going to be $200. Score one for the AOW.
The way I see it, either way, you're going to pay $200 if you do it and you're probably not going to sell the firearm. I'd tell you to register an SBR, it is much more useable and fun with a stock. Since for most, this is kinda a one shot deal - you do it and you keep it, build something of quality you're going to be happy with for a long time probably not the PLR16; pick up a nice ARf receiver, register it and build a good gun. You register that PLR and you had better love it a lot cuz you're gonna be stuck with it for a long time.
Since you asked: ATF Online - Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions
Portland office is closer. 503-331-7830.
Stitchy is right. VFG will make it an AOW. $200 tax. The law creating this scenario was created in 1934, and has not changed.
NorthernBornRebel is drunk.:laugh::laugh:
A shoulder stock makes it an SBR.
Can I get an SOT to make one into an AOW and then transfer it to me for $5? Would they charge me less than $145 and a $50 transfer fee to do so?
no. once the shot firing firearm has had a shoulder stock on it, you can never
reconfigure it into an AOW. it can only become a SBS (with rare exception)
no, it cannot be a SBR, JBMiller.
snew, yes, that is a possibility. if the SOT was your friend, you 'can' try to
work out something like $5 transfer on a Form 4, plus a good rib eye dinner.
What is the NFA and what is an NFA item?
The NFA stands for National Firearms Act of 1934, National Firearms Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There are 6 different types of NFA items:
Machine gun, AKA Full Auto or FA for short
Short Barreled Rifles, SBR rifles with a barrel(s) less then 16
Short Barreled Shotguns, SBS shotguns with barrel(s) less then 18
Suppressors, AKA Silencers
Destructive Devices, DD things like grenades, bombs, bores over 0.50
Any Other Weapon, AOW this is any firearm that does not fit above. Most common are pen guns and pistol shaped shotguns (smooth bore pistol)
Are NFA items legal?
By Federal law NFA items are legal but require proper registration and tax. You will need to check your state laws to find out if the NFA item you want is legal in your state. Some states will allow some items but not others. Here is a link to the state laws from the ATF website: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/statelaws/
In the rest of this post when I talk about legal definition they are based on FEDERAL law, which may not reflect your state law.
How can you get an NFA item?
If you want an NFA item you have 2 choices. You can either buy one or make one.
Most popular way to get an NFA item is to buy one. The normal procedure for buying a NFA item is to find a local NFA dealer that can help you since in most cases you will have to have them transfer the item anyhow. If you are buying a used NFA item IN state no dealer is required but you will still have to fill out all the paperwork and pay the transfer tax.
Once you have the item you want picked out and a dealer that will transfer it for you (if needed) you pay for your item. If it is an item the dealer has in stock you fill out a Form 4 (transfer of NFA item for private users). You can either do the Form 4 as a person or as an entity being a LLC or a Trust. If you fill it out as a person you will need to also get 2 sets of finger prints, 2 passport photos, and a signature from the head LEO where you live. If you use a LLC or Trust you and the dealer just need to sign. Once the Form 4 is filled out you mail it along with payment for the tax to the ATF. Wait time for the Form 4 varies but in recent times it is normally between 30 and 90 days. Once the approved Form 4 comes back you can pick up your item.
If you are buying an item from out of state or having your dealer order item the procedure is basically the same other then the wait is going to be longer. If the item is not in stock it will need to be transferred from the current owner to the NFA dealer. This usually takes 1-4 weeks.
If you choose to build your own NFA item it is similar to doing a transfer but happens a bit different. To build a NFA item you fill out a Form 1 (making NFA item) with the description of the item you want to build. The rest of the Form 1 is filled out in the same manner and mailed just like the Form 4. You do not need a dealer involved to do a Form 1. You cannot build your item until the Form 1 comes back approved. Wait time is the same as for a Form 4.
How much is the tax?
For all making or transfer of NFA items the tax is $200 per item. If you do 5 items even if at the same time it is $200 per item. The only exception for this is on the transfer of AOW, which is $5. Making an AOW is still $200.
How much and how hard is the paperwork?
If you have a CCW in your state or at least can pass that background check you can get an NFA item.
As for paperwork there is very little. Have you filled out a 4473 when buying a gun from a dealer? Well this is no harder. In most cases the dealer will have it filled out and all you have to do is sign. If you have to fill it out then there are electronic forms that you fill out on line and print as a PDF file. It takes about 5 minutes.
Special note about Machine guns.
While it is still legal to build NFA items it is illegal to build new machine guns for non-government/export use.
The 1986 FOPA (Firearms Owners Protection Act) that went into effect May 19, 1986 ban the making of new Machine guns for public sales: THE FIREARMS OWNERS' PROTECTION ACT: A HISTORICAL AND LEGAL PERSPECTIVE
There are 3 different kinds of machine guns:
Transferable. These guns were made AND registered prior to May 19,1986. These are the guns on the open market and are legal for sale and use by anyone. Since there are a limited number of these guns, estimated at just under 200,000, they command a premium price. For price it is not out of line for these guns to command 10-20 times the amount of the semi auto version.
Pre Dealer Samples. These are guns that can only be owned by dealers. These guns were also cut off in May of 1986. When a dealer gives up his SOT license (NFA Dealer) he can still legally keep these guns. Prices of these are about 75% of what transferable guns cost.
Post Dealer Samples. These are guns made after May of 1986. Dealers only can only get these guns if they have a letter from a qualified buyer stating they want to buy or demo the gun. Cost is about the same as the semi auto version.
When it comes to Machine guns there are also 2 types. Ones that uses registered receivers and ones that use registered parts.
With registered receivers (RR) what you have is pretty much what you get. Some guns are more flexible then others. With a RR FAL, what you have is an FAL and that is it. If you have a RR M-16 you are stuck with an AR lower but you can swap uppers and have many calibers.
Some have registered parts like the bolt or a sear. Some of the more common sear guns are the HKs like the 91, 93, 94, ect. You can use your registered sear in any gun that it will fit in legally. So you could go out and buy a new one (or as new as you can get) and put your sear in it and fire FA, then pull it out and have a legal rifle again. Or if you buddy has a nice HK 94 that you wanted to try in FA you can legally drop your sear in it and have fun for the afternoon.
Is it an AOW or an SBS?
This is one of the biggest confusions about shotguns. What it is labeled will depend on how it was made. If it has EVER had a stock on it the gun has to be a SBS. If the gun has NEVER had a stock it would be an AOW, but could be made an SBS by adding a stock. Can an AOW and SBS look the same? Yes they can, but not always, so the only way to tell on some guns is to look at the NFA paperwork for the gun and see what it is labeled.
Most of the popular pistol sized/shaped shotguns are AOWs made from guns like the Mossbergs or the Remingtons that come with pistol grips and not stocks on them. But again since a pistol sized/shaped shotgun CAN be made from a shotgun that has a stock on it the label would NOT be AOW if it EVER had a stock, it would have to be a SBS.
Is one better then the other? If you want a short shotgun with a stock you have to have SBS. Some states do not allow all classes you may be legal to own an AOW vs SBS or the other way around. There is also only a $5 transfer on AOW vs $200 for the others.
ETA: I ownz yer page 2 !!!!
There's also the new BATFE 2010 PC