National Thoughts on Shockwave/Tac-14/et. al. legality, etc.

[User 1234]

Going to get a bit silly here, but this is why I hate all these stupid laws they try to make:

So if I want to take this to the range I have to carry open-carry at all times? I can't put it in a rifle bag or anything else that conceals it from plain view, even just from car to range? You know most private ranges will insist it be in a case, so what then? What about the fact that I guarantee when I buy it new at a store it comes in a box, and they will probably insist I leave it in the box while carrying out of the store, thus instantly making it an A.O.W....

And this is why we can't have nice laws or legal interpretations.

If you go to the actual law you'll find that "concealed on the person" is the actual phrase, not merely "concealed."26 U.S.C. § 5845(e).

 

[User 1234]

Firearms - Guides - Importation & Verification of Firearms - National Firearms Act Definitions - Any Other Weapon | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Previous Page Download this Section Download the Guidebook Next Page Firearms Verification National Firearms Act Definitions Any Other Weapon 26 U.S.C.

www.atf.gov

 

[Alexx1401]

Going to get a bit silly here, but this is why I hate all these stupid laws they try to make:

So if I want to take this to the range I have to carry open-carry at all times? I can't put it in a rifle bag or anything else that conceals it from plain view, even just from car to range? You know most private ranges will insist it be in a case, so what then? What about the fact that I guarantee when I buy it new at a store it comes in a box, and they will probably insist I leave it in the box while carrying out of the store, thus instantly making it an A.O.W....

And this is why we can't have nice laws or legal interpretations.

Big difference between loaded and empty. No gun shop is going to sell you a loaded firearm. No shop is going to load a firearm and put it in a box for you. Kind of scary that any gun owners would not understand something like this.

 

[The Heretic]

Going to get a bit silly here, but this is why I hate all these stupid laws they try to make:

So if I want to take this to the range I have to carry open-carry at all times? I can't put it in a rifle bag or anything else that conceals it from plain view, even just from car to range? You know most private ranges will insist it be in a case, so what then? What about the fact that I guarantee when I buy it new at a store it comes in a box, and they will probably insist I leave it in the box while carrying out of the store, thus instantly making it an A.O.W....

And this is why we can't have nice laws or legal interpretations.

No - "carry concealed" means to carry it loaded on your person.

Not carrying in a gun case.

 

[FourTeeFive]

Going to get a bit silly here, but this is why I hate all these stupid laws they try to make:

So if I want to take this to the range I have to carry open-carry at all times? I can't put it in a rifle bag or anything else that conceals it from plain view, even just from car to range? You know most private ranges will insist it be in a case, so what then? What about the fact that I guarantee when I buy it new at a store it comes in a box, and they will probably insist I leave it in the box while carrying out of the store, thus instantly making it an A.O.W....

And this is why we can't have nice laws or legal interpretations.

Good point when it comes to WA law. I remember many years ago we had a concealed weapons license. Now it is a concealed PISTOL license, even though the RCW heading is Carrying FIREARMS:

RCW 9.41.050.2: Carrying firearms.

Also, there is a law against having a loaded shotgun or rifle in a vehicle, but the Shockwave is neither as it is classified only as a firearm. So can you carry it loaded in your vehicle (section 1)?

RCW 77.15.460: Loaded rifle or shotgun in vehicle—Unlawful use or possession—Unlawful use of a loaded firearm—Penalty.

A Shockwave isn't a pistol, but is a "Dangerous Weapon" since it is a firearm, so you can't conceal it legally in WA:

RCW 9.41.250.1B: Dangerous weapons—Penalty.

"Furtively carries with intent to conceal" - does that mean an unloaded rifle or shotgun in a guitar case? Is an unloaded firearm still considered a dangerous weapon? I can't find any specifics on that in the RCW.

 

[FourTeeFive]

Big difference between loaded and empty. No gun shop is going to sell you a loaded firearm. No shop is going to load a firearm and put it in a box for you. Kind of scary that any gun owners would not understand something like this.

I'm actually having trouble finding in the RCW where they differentiate between loaded and unloaded other than carrying a rifle or shotgun in a car. See my previous post.

 

[Alexx1401]

I'm actually having trouble finding in the RCW where they differentiate between loaded and unloaded other than carrying a rifle or shotgun in a car. See my previous post.

Not a lawyer, did not stay in a Holiday Inn but, for what its worth in WA state you can NOT carry a loaded long gun in a vehicle with an exception someone posted about hunting if you are disabled. So the simple answer is unless you are Law Enforcement you can not carry a loaded long gun in the vehicle. Does not matter if its concealed or not.
If you wish to get a WA CPL (Concealed carry license) you can carry a loaded hand gun concealed. For any who want to make themselves a "test case" by doing it some other way they are welcome to do so. Its pretty obvious that we can carry a long gun in the vehicle if its not loaded. If it was not the stores that sell guns would have to warn everyone buying a long gun that they could not take it home with them by vehicle. I am sure many carry a loaded long gun because "someone told them" they could. Sounds great, they are hopefully adults and can made adult decisions and if somehow caught they can pay adult consequences too. These "Shockwave" type firearms are a firearm here in WA, So fare not defined any further. So again any who want to make themselves a test case? Great, have at it. I am sure some are carrying one loaded. I don't have one but if I do buy one I will not be making myself one of the test cases. It will be interesting to see how one shakes out though since our AG decided that the stores selling them had to treat the sale like a hand gun. Be fun to watch, not for me to participate in.

 

[FourTeeFive]

Not a lawyer, did not stay in a Holiday Inn but, for what its worth in WA state you can NOT carry a loaded long gun in a vehicle with an exception someone posted about hunting if you are disabled. So the simple answer is unless you are Law Enforcement you can not carry a loaded long gun in the vehicle. Does not matter if its concealed or not.
If you wish to get a WA CPL (Concealed carry license) you can carry a loaded hand gun concealed.

The "see my previous post" part meant to see where I had posted this, among other items:

RCW 77.15.460: Loaded rifle or shotgun in vehicle—Unlawful use or possession—Unlawful use of a loaded firearm—Penalty.

And to the point of part of my message, it doesn't appear that the law distinguishes between loaded and unloaded handguns. Nowhere can I find where it discusses concealer carry of a loaded pistol; just a pistol.

 

[The Heretic]

There has been some confusion about this - whether the final rule includes the comments about shotguns or not. There were some comments from one ATF official that those were just "comments" and not to be included in the ruling.


However, the final final rule does include ruling on putting braces on these "firearms" and makes them into a SBS.

https://www.sb-tactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/ATF-Final-Brace-Rule.pdf

So I think the safest conclusion is that a brace on a Shockwave/Tac-14/et. al. requires a tax stamp/etc.

 

[bradsteen]

There has been some confusion about this - whether the final rule includes the comments about shotguns or not. There were some comments from one ATF official that those were just "comments" and not to be included in the ruling.


However, the final final rule does include ruling on putting braces on these "firearms" and makes them into a SBS.

https://www.sb-tactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/ATF-Final-Brace-Rule.pdf

So I think the safest conclusion is that a brace on a Shockwave/Tac-14/et. al. requires a tax stamp/etc.

Anyone know if the injunctions in place for SAF, GOA, etc apply to these? Sounds like the same issue as with AR pistols - namely, ATF changing definitions is an overreach of authority and should be the responsibility of Congress.

 

[The Heretic]

Anyone know if the injunctions in place for SAF, GOA, etc apply to these? Sounds like the same issue as with AR pistols - namely, ATF changing definitions is an overreach of authority and should be the responsibility of Congress.

That's what prompted me to make my latest post here; a Reddit thread asking that question.