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Owned a Shockwave for all of a week+ now, haven't shot it yet, but this is about thoughts on legality issues.

I originally did not understand how these could be legal, but over the years I came to understand the basic premise of where these fall in the law. At first I didn't see much of a use for them, but recently I came around, at least for myself. When I got to seriously considering them, then I took more interest, and part of that was the legalities. I found some people seemed to have some misunderstandings about the law and how the ATF viewed them, so I thought I would post about my take on the laws (mostly federal) and rules and the ATF interpretation of same.

When I use the term 'firearm' with single quotes in this post, I mean one of these firearms as they fall into that legal definition of not a shotgun, not a rifle and not a pistol per federal law (what they are in state law varies by state it appears).

First, some of the obvious - but also maybe not so obvious, even the obvious has some caveats and misunderstandings and grey areas:

1) The OAL (Overall Length) must be 26"+; I have seen longer than 26" and IIRC in ATF letters/etc., too, so not just 26", but longer than 26" - at least to be safe. Mine, with a pistol brace, pistol grip, and 14" barrel is 30"+ long - the same length as the Mossberg 500 bullpup with a 20" barrel. Without the tube and brace, but with the pistol grip, it is a bit over 23". So most of these with just a vertical pistol grip would not be a 'firearm', they would be an 'AOW' (Any Other Weapon) - put a shoulder stock on them and they are over 26" long, but then they are a SBS (Short Barreled Shotgun).

As long as the OAL length is 26"+, the barrel can be any length, from less than 18" to more than 18". E.G., with the current pistol brace installed, I could shorten the barrel to 10" if I wished and the length being 26"+, it would still be a 'firearm' and not an AOW or SBS. IIRC I have seen some configurations like this (Black Aces?) - my assumption is that Mossberg and Remington stuck with the 14" because that is a sweet spot with regards to their standard components, cost, marketing and still be 26"+ OAL. Also, at 14" the 'firearm' does not look that short, such that some might not automatically question the barrel length and legality - especially if they do not know this is not know about the legal length limits for an SBS/etc. But a 10" barrel? Yes, that looks short, even with a pistol brace on it.

2) The 'grip'. I have seen some suggest that there is something magical about the 'raptor' or 'birds head' type grip that makes these firearms a 'firearm' in the eyes of the law (and ATF). Some also suggest that putting a vertical pistol grip in place of that 'birds head' grip would make it no longer a 'firearm' even if the OAL was still 26"+. Not true, and it has been done, and letters from the ATF have been written and published (Black Aces IIRC).

IMG_20170510_065726.jpg
20170525_112836.jpg

There are other configurations out there, but there is nothing in the law that says that putting a pistol grip on this 'firearm' makes it a pistol or removes it from the classification of a 'firearm' as long as the OAL is 26"+.

A person could put a longer barrel on the gun (~17" but less than 18" on a Shockwave or Tac-14), remove the birds head grip, replace it with a standard pistol grip, and get the required legal OAL to be legal, and it would still be a 'firearm', not an AOW or other NFA firearm.

3) The 'firearm' can never have been "manufactured/made" as a shotgun, rifle or pistol as defined in the GCA and NFA laws.

Possible grey area: not sure if you can put a shoulder stock on these 'firearms' with an 18"+ barrel and then return it to the 'firearm' configuration with a barrel less than 18", 26"+ OAL and no shoulder stock. There is the precedent of being able to do that with a 'pistol' (make it a rifle, then return it to being a pistol), but that was a 'pistol' not a 'firearm'.

I have noticed that for the Mossberg Shockwave at least, there is no 'Shockwave' marking on it that I can find. Nothing about it being anything other than a Mossberg 590. I have not handled a Remington TAC-14 so I don't know what its markings are. Other than the serial number, how would anyone (especially a LEO) know this started as a Shockwave and not a standard shotgun? How would they know if a person put a short barrel on a Mossberg 'shotgun' and said it was a Shockwave 'firearm' - without checking the serial #? :s0153:

Seems like an area for misunderstanding and possible temporary legal issues to me. Also, possible area for fraud - although I can't imagine why a seller would put a short barrel on a 'shotgun' to sell it as a Shockwave to make money as there would probably be little to no profit in it and if they got caught they would face "pound me in the *** federal prison time" (reference to the movie "Office Space").

4) Forward vertical pistol grip. These are legal on a 'firearm'. A 'firearm' is not a pistol. There are configurations out there with the VFG that are approved by the ATF as a 'firearm'.

http://www.blackacestactical.com/product-page/black-aces-tactical-dt

You cannot put a VFG on a 'pistol', but the 'firearm' is not a pistol. It just is a 'firearm' not made to be shouldered.

5) Pistol braces. These are legal and count towards OAL as mentioned above. As long as it is not a stock intended/designed to be used as a shoulder stock. Now some people may use it that way, but that is not what it was designed for, not its intended use.

6) Folding braces/et. al. - legal, but there is some controversy/debate about whether OAL is measured with the brace/etc. folded or not. My understanding is that for other firearms (rifle or pistol) OAL length is measured with the stock extended as this is how the brace is intended to be used - so I think that would apply here, but then there is the rumor that an ATF agent is measuring the OAL with the stock or brace folded. There is also some debate about pistol braces on a pistol with regards to length when the brace is collapsed (not folded, but moved to its most forward position) - I would think that OAL is measure with the brace/et. al. moved to its most forward position.

7) Modifying the firearm in any way. With the exception of modifying an installed pistol brace or installing one that is modified (which I recommend you do not do on a 'firearm' or pistol), as long as you meet the legal requirements of OAL I think you are ok. This goes back to the issues of the birds head grip and the VFG.

One thing I think you cannot do: do NOT install a rifled barrel on the 'firearm'. The 'firearm' is a 'firearm' in part because it is not a rifle. It is not a rifle because it does not have a rifled barrel. It is not a shotgun because it came from the manufacturer without a shoulder stock. Stay within the parameters of it being a 'firearm' and you should be okay. That probably includes never putting a shoulder stock on it even though you install an 18" barrel - let someone else go to court and set that precedent like TC did for pistols.
 
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One thing I think you cannot do: do NOT install a rifled barrel on the 'firearm'. The 'firearm' is a 'firearm' in part because it is not a rifle. It is not a rifle because it does not have a rifled barrel. It is not a shotgun because it came from the manufacturer without a shoulder stock. Stay within the parameters of it being a 'firearm' and you should be okay. That probably includes never putting a should stock on it even though you install an 18" barrel - let someone else go to court and set that precedent like TC did for pistols.


Well written. However I this this statement may be incorrect.

I built a 26+" AR 'firearm' and it for sure has a rifled barrel.

A non rifled barrel, non shotgun type weapon is allowed to have a stock + short barrel.
 
Well written. However I this this statement may be incorrect.

I built a 26+" AR 'firearm' and it for sure has a rifled barrel.

A non rifled barrel, non shotgun type weapon is allowed to have a stock + short barrel.

My assertion was and is that you cannot put a rifled barrel on these 'firearms' (e.g., Shockwave/et. al.) - at least not one that is shorter than 18". And if you do, you may not be able to reconfigure it with a short barrel (less than 18") and have it again be classified as a 'firearm'.

Yes, you can make a 'firearm' (Shockwave, Tac-14, et. al.) that is a pistol or rifle, but the Shockwave is neither of those, and it isn't a shotgun either as it was not designed/manufactured with the intended purpose being to shoot it from the shoulder.
 
Thanks for the confusion. NOT meant to be predatory or trolling or anything, just an eye opening interpretation of the law. Trust me, been there done that.....Had threads closed and deleted for this exact (different but same same) interpretation....Following this thread btw...
 
Heretic, et al., here is the the link to 2 March 17 ATF's classification response, with applicable CFR cites to O.C. Mossberg regarding ATF's interpretations on if their new, at the time, model 590 shotgun is under GCA or NFA classification.

http://www.mossberg.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Shockwave-Letter-from-ATF-3-2-17.pdf

What confused me, the ATF's mention, several times, if the shotgun was carried conealed by a citizen this MIGHT change the shotgun's GCA classification to NFA?
 
I bought a shockwave for the reason I think they may close this loophole?
It comes with a copy of the letter above. This part that @Jonnyuma quotes
really caught my attention.:oops::oops::oops::oops::oops:
What confused me, the ATF's mention, several times, if the shotgun was carried conealed by a citizen this MIGHT change the shotgun's GCA classification to NFA?
:eek::eek::eek: It shoots pretty nice with the "Minis". Bought an adapter to shoot the Minis. Crimson
Trace green laser and skate board tape on the birds head. Birds head easier on recoil than a pistol grip. Haven't shot it with 3 inch yet and probably never will.
DSC00183.JPG
 
Heretic, et al., here is the the link to 2 March 17 ATF's classification response, with applicable CFR cites to O.C. Mossberg regarding ATF's interpretations on if their new, at the time, model 590 shotgun is under GCA or NFA classification.

http://www.mossberg.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Shockwave-Letter-from-ATF-3-2-17.pdf

What confused me, the ATF's mention, several times, if the shotgun was carried conealed by a citizen this MIGHT change the shotgun's GCA classification to NFA?

Yes, part of the classification is that it is not concealable because it is 26" OAL.

However, the ATF has also said in some clarifications on pistol braces, that 'use' does not change the classification of a firearm. The ATF likes to go back and forth on this kind of stuff to keep us guessing but I am not worried about that particular issue; the only way I would conceal it is if SHTF, I had it in my vehicle and had to go on foot somewhere after abandoning my vehicle. Also, mine has a pistol brace on it, so it is even longer and less concealable.
 
I bought a shockwave for the reason I think they may close this loophole?
It comes with a copy of the letter above. This part that @Jonnyuma quotes
really caught my attention.:oops::oops::oops::oops::oops:

:eek::eek::eek: It shoots pretty nice with the "Minis". Bought an adapter to shoot the Minis. Crimson
Trace green laser and skate board tape on the birds head. Birds head easier on recoil than a pistol grip. Haven't shot it with 3 inch yet and probably never will.
View attachment 499904
General question here. Why would a bird's head grip be easier than a pistol type grip, recoil-wise? Would seem it takes even more strength to hold the birds head plus your wrist angle would be angled??? Just askin'
 
Pistol grip recoil is more straight back on the hand.:mad: Birds head recoil
is more of an upward motion.
OK. I understand the pistol/straight back answer, but it seems like the Birds Head would want to drop as the muzzle rises. Obviously I don't understand the physics here. Not trying to be obtuse but I learn by asking questions.
 
To assure OR & other state's visiting members are given correct information instead unsubstantiated mumbo-jumbo, allow me to provide & quote OR statute 166.210, Definitions
5)"Handgun" means any pistol or revolver using a fixed cartridge containing a propellant charge, primer and projectile, and designed to be aimed or fired otherwise than from the shoulder. Unquote. ORS 166.210 - Definitions - 2017 Oregon Revised Statutes

Humm i see a prob, from the state's statutory definition, concealing the Shockwave is illegal because the legally manufactured title of the firearm is a SHOTGUN!

Now I guess i know a rose by any other name isn't a handgun for concealment purposes.
 
1
ORS 166.whatever, subsection something-or-other, where they define "handgun"

2
Concealing it would be illegal in OR

3
they define "handgun" for the purposes of a CHL)

1
OR statute 166.210, Definitions
5)"Handguns"

2
from the state's statutory definition, concealing the Shockwave is illegal

3
Now I guess i know a rose by any other name isn't a handgun for concealment purposes.
Thank you for providing...
... correct information instead unsubstantiated mumbo-jumbo,
... my mumbo-jumbo was substantial
 
To assure OR & other state's visiting members are given correct information instead unsubstantiated mumbo-jumbo, allow me to provide & quote OR statute 166.210, Definitions
5)"Handgun" means any pistol or revolver using a fixed cartridge containing a propellant charge, primer and projectile, and designed to be aimed or fired otherwise than from the shoulder. Unquote. ORS 166.210 - Definitions - 2017 Oregon Revised Statutes

Humm i see a prob, from the state's statutory definition, concealing the Shockwave is illegal because the legally manufactured title of the firearm is a SHOTGUN!

Now I guess i know a rose by any other name isn't a handgun for concealment purposes.

By ATF's classification, a Shockwave/etc., is not a handgun, shotgun or rifle.

What it is in the context of Orygun's laws I am thinking the AG and gov. would very much like to classify it as a SBS but maybe chose for political reasons not to do so at this point in time. I think it caught them by surprise so they let it ride for now. What will happen in the future? Who knows? Maybe they felt it was more important to go after semi-autos with mags of 10+ rounds than to go after shotguns with limited capacity and range?
 
That letter is only for the purposes of transfers and background checks that go thru the Orygun system. It has no bearing on other laws as to the classification of the firearm - including when/where/how you carry it.

As has been said numerous times, only handguns can be carried concealed with a permit in Orygun (or other exceptions when hunting/etc., so it cannot be carried concealed upon ones person. Otherwise a person should treat a Shockwave/Tac-14/et. al. as a long gun with regards to the law.
 
That letter is only for the purposes of transfers and background checks that go thru the Orygun system. It has no bearing on other laws as to the classification of the firearm - including when/where/how you carry it.

As has been said numerous times, only handguns can be carried concealed with a permit in Orygun (or other exceptions when hunting/etc., so it cannot be carried concealed upon ones person. Otherwise a person should treat a Shockwave/Tac-14/et. al. as a long gun with regards to the law.

Still can't quite figure why OSP instructed dealers to transfer it as a "handgun". There is an option on 4473 Q16
for "Other", and sale of an "Other" caries the same age etc restrictions as a pistol. By designating it as a handgun
they open the door for a plausible defense if a person were to carry it concealed on their person or in their vehicle
with a Oregon Concealed Handgun License.
 

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