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thoughts about trust marking requirements?

Discussion in 'NFA Weapon Discussion' started by jazz hand stumps, Mar 16, 2011.

  1. jazz hand stumps

    jazz hand stumps Oregon Member

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    i was thinking.

    would a riveted or pinned identification plate affixed to the receiver of the firearm with trust name, city and state on it fulfil the identification requirements for marking?

    this assumes correct etching depth, font, size, etc. for the text itself.

    this would only require a couple of small holes to be drilled in the receiver to allow the rivets to pass through for attachment, but wouldn't permanently muck up the reciever itself.

    something like this:
    stainless-steel-id-tag.jpg
     
  2. WhitneyPrecision

    WhitneyPrecision Lane County Member

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    The answer is NO as it does not meet the marking requirements.

    Unless of course the "identification plate" IS the NFA registered weapon.
     
  3. seattlewingsfan

    seattlewingsfan Lakewood, Washington, United States Member

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    Much like a silences has to be identified on the body, and not a removable part.
     
  4. jazz hand stumps

    jazz hand stumps Oregon Member

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    so, the 2 things that caught my eye were the 'placing' verbiage, and 'readily altered, obliterated, or removed' (emphasis added by me)

    i would think that if you steel crush riveted (like ak builder rivets) a flat piece of steel with the lettering marked in a lawful size and depth, directly to the reciever (like any other part on a firearm.. that would satisfy the 'placing' and 'readily altered, obliterated, or removed' requirements rather perfectly.

    think handgrip reinforcement plate, or side rail scope mount on an AK,

    after all, like serial numbers or other factory markings, it would require the use of tools to remove the plate from the reciever, once riveted to the reciever. it would be essentially an ID plate, which, the identification of an NFA item, seems to be the idea of marking in the first place? you would have to drill or cut the rivet, which, seems to be the same or more effort than grinding off a serial number on a frame or what have you.

    after all, a barrel extention is considered 'permantly affixed' as long as its blind pinned, right? thats even less material than a crush rivet.

    [Code of Federal Regulations]
    [Title 27, Volume 2]
    [Revised as of April 1, 2003]
    From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
    [CITE: 27CFR479.102]
    [Page 188-189]
    TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS
    CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
    DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
    PART 479--MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS--Table of Contents
    Subpart G--Registration and Identification of Firearms
    Sec. 479.102 How must firearms be identified?
    (a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must
    legibly identify the firearm as follows:
    (1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
    conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
    (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual
    serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not
    susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must
    not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For
    firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
    the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number
    must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller
    than 1/16 inch; and
    (2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
    conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
    (impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain
    additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not
    susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For
    firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
    the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information
    must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information
    includes:
    (i) The model, if such designation has been made;
    (ii) The caliber or gauge;
    (iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when
    applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;
    (iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State
    (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer
    maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the
    firearm; and
    [[Page 189]]
    (v) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in
    which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized
    abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of
    business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see
    Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.
    (b) The depth of all markings required by this section will be
    measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges.
    The height of serial numbers required by paragraph (a)(1) of this
    section will be measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of
    the character impression bottoms (bases).
    (c) The Director may authorize other means of identification upon
    receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate,
    showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder
    the effective administration of this part.
    (d) In the case of a destructive device, the Director may authorize
    other means of identifying that weapon upon receipt of a letter
    application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that engraving,
    casting, or stamping (impressing) such a weapon would be dangerous or
    impracticable.
    (e) A firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a
    complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed
    of by you must be identified as required by this section.
    (f)(1) Any part defined as a machine gun, muffler, or silencer for
    the purposes of this part that is not a component part of a complete
    firearm at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you
    must be identified as required by this section.
    (2) The Director may authorize other means of identification of
    parts defined as machine guns other than frames or receivers and parts
    defined as mufflers or silencers upon receipt of a letter application
    from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification
    is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this
    part.
     
  5. WhitneyPrecision

    WhitneyPrecision Lane County Member

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    Not exactly...

    http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf

    The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and measured.
     
  6. seattlewingsfan

    seattlewingsfan Lakewood, Washington, United States Member

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    I think the issue would be that a rivited plate is easy to move from one weapon to another. I could in theory move the plate every week to a new gun with minimal effort or blemish. Your not going to grind or fill the old reciever and engrave a new reciever every week.
     
  7. jazz hand stumps

    jazz hand stumps Oregon Member

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    How does glock work their serial number scheme in? It looks like a thin metal crush tag loop

    Glock-17-Pistol.jpg

    The same thing, made new would be a loop of steel swaged through a couple of slots in the frame
     
  8. waltermitty

    waltermitty seattle Active Member

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    glock: any variance to the CFR in respect to marking can be submitted to BATF for a ruling
     
  9. billdeserthills

    billdeserthills Cave Creek, Arizony Well-Known Member

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    I received my manufacturing FFL a couple of years ago, however I haven't found the 5 to 6 grand needed for an engraving machine yet...I hope you are on an affordable track to discover a cheaper way to satisfy the aft's engraving rules...
     
  10. wired

    wired Yakima Well-Known Member

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    A trip to the laser engraver is usually about $30
     
  11. waltermitty

    waltermitty seattle Active Member

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    there are laser engravers....and there are LASER ENGRAVERS. the trick is to find
    someone who has invested in a laser unit which will meet CFR requirement for depth.
    it's relatively easy to find someone who can handle font size.
     
  12. wired

    wired Yakima Well-Known Member

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    A 30 watt laser will do just fine especially on Aluminum. Swift tool in Kent has a 60 watt and they'll do work while you wait..
     
  13. Ben Beckerich

    Ben Beckerich NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    i'm going to open this can...

    some guys don't engrave, and leave 4H blank.