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This is the USA, not the USTS!!!

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by Bajablast, Jun 16, 2009.

  1. Bajablast

    Bajablast Hillsboro, OR Active Member

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    This is NOT the United States of Tolerance and Submission (USTS) IT IS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA:flag:

    I will not tolerate those Extremists that are attacking and killing our troops over seas.

    I will not tolerate the President of the USA submitting to foreign Heads of State-Kissing the hand of Saudi King, etc...

    I will not tolerate the USA submitting to the United Nations:nuts:

    I will not submit to the government telling me I have to have government universal health coverage.

    I will not submit to the government telling me what car I can drive.

    I will not submit to have my (future) CHL info made public.

    I will not submit to having my 2nd Ammendent rights abolished!!! :gun14:

    I will not submit to having my 1st Ammendent rights censored.

    This is the greatest country in the history of Earth, and we have led the World in Democracy. It is about time the idiots running this country stood up and led again.

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  2. eldbillbo

    eldbillbo clackamas New world samurai and a redneck none the less Bronze Supporter

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    Well what are you gonna do about it? The Choir wants to know.
     
  3. Bajablast

    Bajablast Hillsboro, OR Active Member

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    I am going to excercise my rights legally while I can, and convince as many people as I can to do so also.

    Posting here is a start..............

    I believe in Democracy, but what we have currently is clearly something else.........

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    If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
     
  4. wakejoe

    wakejoe Beaverton, OR Well-Known Member

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    Well, war is the next step. Ballot boxes aren't doing anything, and I don't remember getting to vote my say on this CHL information thing.

    So, take up arms. Oh, but wait. That's the wrong thing to do. Violence won't solve anything. I forgot, we should keep debating back and forth. Things get done faster. :)
     
  5. treemanx

    treemanx Spray, Or. Active Member

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    This sentence doesnt make any sense.... Why do we want the idiots running this country to stand up and lead again? Why dont we get some people that ARENT idiots?? Or am I mis reading this?
     
  6. eldbillbo

    eldbillbo clackamas New world samurai and a redneck none the less Bronze Supporter

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    This country needs a Enima


    FREEDOM
    995BVH_Mel_Gibson_060.jpg



    United we stand Divided we fall
     
  7. Zhivago

    Zhivago Everett, WA Member

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    For all the crying about universal health care being socialism, I have as yet to hear someone offer a better alternative. The health care system in the US is so broken it's a pitiful disgrace and continuing to let it go on as is with HMOs and insurance giants raping and pillaging paychecks and giving nothing but sub-par service and constant attempts to screw people over in return just reaffirms my theory that the United States is no longer a country but a giant conglomerate run by an amalgamation of corporations looking out only for their bottom line.
     
  8. treemanx

    treemanx Spray, Or. Active Member

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    By itself, I dont think there is a problem with trying to revamp the US healthcare system. By itself, it is not socialism. But start looking at everything else, and the way everything is turning in our great country, and the universal healthcare thing is just a nail in the coffin of the socialism changing the US.
     
  9. jeddedia

    jeddedia Wilsonville, Oregon, United States Member

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    How very true! There are alternatives though, and having explored one option more thouroughly than others it would be similar to FDR's 'New Deal'. This brought much ridicule and it's still unclear in most people's eyes if it helped or hindered rough financial times, etc. and ad nauseam:smash:

    But if the US was willing to put aside such divisors as 'Democrock', 'Republitard', etc. since all they are is words, and stand for the honor and pride which comes with our Constitution we could make the health care system a good thing. HMOs and insurance giants will take a lot to topple in the end, and it won't be an easy battle; much like our 2nd Amendment and CHL rights! We'll most likely see the fight carried on long after we're dead and gone...

    We can't fight the system though, as resistance from an educated, aware, and honorable people under a tyrannical government will NOT be tolerated. HMO's will be given more power to pull at the heart strings (and wallets) of the masses, mass media will claim it's all for our benefit, rights slowly but methodically stripped from us using subversive tactics, and those in seats of power will become more aloof and above the law.

    Where does that leave us? The honest, hard-working, and faithful citizens of this country. I say be the squeaky wheel, be the gnat in the office, be the sticky bbq sauce on the politician's fingers that won't go away without some major attention and pumice soap! Sitting by idly soaking up television's 'news' will NOT help this country! Form your own opinions and do something GREAT for this country, your community, your local corner store or the person you just met in Safeway. Just do something to show your pride in this country, this land of (basically) freedom so many have given everything they had for!
     
  10. PeakResources

    PeakResources Portland (past) Colorado (now) Member

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    Zhivago -- Anytime you have power aggregation, whether to corporations, or to a centralized government, it sucks more power to itself whenever it can. At least with private choices, we can choose to get health insurance or not. For those who are healthy, it's probably more efficient to be without health insurance, or only the cheap catastrophic insurance. But now the government wants the the power. Along with it will be all sort of dictates about how YOU live your life. What about those who smoke, drink, eat unhealthy food, don't workout, etc? If any lifestyle choices have an effect on health, the government will have even more reason to say "no, you cannot do that", thus restricting our freedoms in the name of providing more services.

    You want an alternative? How about choosing between plans yourself? How about paying for the doctors out of your own pocket? We have family without insurance, and it's cheaper for them to go to ZoomCare (an excellent walk in care unit in Portland) and pay $75 for the visit. Given the visit is about half an hour with a real doctor, that seems like a bargain to me.

    In sum, while our current system definitely needs improvement, I would rather head toward MORE individual choice than less choice and more paternalism from our Federal Government.
     
  11. Zhivago

    Zhivago Everett, WA Member

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    A reasonable argument and I wont say I disagree, not entirely anyway. I would counter with two points though. First, the only way in which corporations which have so much power could be constrained would be by the only body which has even more power: the federal government. However, then you run into the problem of these corporations having put so many people into their nice cushy offices and you have a dog chasing it's tail. Secondly, I'm all for individual choice, but not at the expense of the uneducated masses who would undoubtedly find themselves taken advantage of just like they are now. There has to be SOME kind of framework to protect people and ensure they receive the services they are entitled to. And I use the word entitled very intentionally because proper health care in a country with so much wealth to waste on war is a RIGHT, it is not a privilege. I am astonished that the government can spend so much money on war and the so-called "national defense" and give away foreign aid in vast sums while it's own citizens suffer with unemployment, unable to eat or get health care. The end of globalization will coincide with the end of cheap oil and HOPEFULLY result in a reinvestment in our own country, rather than shipping our wealth around the world. Only time will tell though.
     
  12. PeakResources

    PeakResources Portland (past) Colorado (now) Member

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    Zhivago -- We agree on many fronts. Huge corporations (especially health care) and government are very similar in that they are both trying to aggregate more power to themselves. Also agree that globalization will end with the ending of cheap oil. I also agree that there are MANY in this country that are being taken advantage of. That includes you & I as we contribute to the wealth of others via work. What I disagree with is that people have the "right" to take from others. Unfortunately, in this country, we have completely divorced the idea of a "benefit" or "entitlement" from the taxation and burden it carries. What is being said when someone has a "right" is that they get to dip their hand into my pocket (and yours, and anyone else who is actually productive and working) to take what they desire. As the economy contracts, we will see many services and "rights" being lost. For me, it is much more fundamental to have police and education for those who are being taken advantage of than universal health care. Unfortunately, even police and schools are being cut. I think we have to make tough choices about what we care about. The harsh reality is that cheap energy (and all the multitude of easy living benefits that came with it) is over, and we'll all have to do more for ourselves. Unfortunately, I think those in power are going to use it as an excuse to extract more from the masses, and enrich themselves...
     
  13. Wierzbowski

    Wierzbowski Sherwood Member

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    I've got an alternative. Make the following changes and watch health care suddenly become affordable:

    1. Enact tort reform so that doctors, hospitals, and everyone else in the medical industry don't have to carry huge amounts of very expensive malpractice insurance. Yes, lawyers would become considerably poorer, but John "Silky Pony" Edwards and his ilk would adapt and overcome somehow, I'm sure.

    2. Let the free market dictate pricing by eliminating health insurance altogether, both public and private. Doctors and hospitals will be forced to charge what average people can afford to pay or not get paid at all. Average people like you and me will choose to stop going to the doctor every time they get a runny nose because it's going to cost them more. People who can't afford to pay for their own health care will be forced to do without. Which leads me to...

    3. Eliminate government interference in the medical industry. The law mandates that hospitals treat everyone who walks through the door, regardless of their ability to pay. When part of the population doesn't pay, the rest of us pay for them, so costs to the consumer go up. Eliminating government interference in the market makes the market more efficient, thereby reducing the costs involved in providing the product to the paying customer, just like in every other non-monopolized market known to man.

    How about instead of trying socialism, which has been demonstrated to be a failure again and again, we try the free market. You know, the free market! The one that has made this country the greatest country on the face of the earth! Why would we want to emulate lesser countries by adopting socialism? I don't know.

    As an aside, if the health care system in the US is so broken and "sub-par", then why do so many people from other countries (including those with socialized medicine) come here for major medical procedures?

    If you think that power in the hands of big, evil corporations is bad, wait until all of that power resides with the federal government. You haven't seen big and evil until you've seen a federal government that gets to make medical decisions.

    Bigger government is never the answer.
     
  14. Bajablast

    Bajablast Hillsboro, OR Active Member

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    I meant for them to stop wanting the world to love/like/respect us, and realize that this is not the way to go

    I want them to stand up and lead, instead of being led.......

    I want them to support our allies such as Israel

    I want them to treat dictators like dictators, not like long lost buddies--Chavez, Ortega, etc......

    Doesn't seem too much to ask, does it??

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  15. Wierzbowski

    Wierzbowski Sherwood Member

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    I haven't heard of anyone like that since Ronald Reagan.
     
  16. Spray-n-pray

    Spray-n-pray Battle Ground Moderator Staff Member

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    I've heard it said that it takes a Jimmy Carter to get a Ronald Reagan. With the current president going far above and beyond Carter's ability to damage America, our next president will hopefully be the best we ever have!
     
  17. Zhivago

    Zhivago Everett, WA Member

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    The US health care system is the most technologically advanced and capable in the world. No doubt about that. What I meant was that the system is broken because it is set up as a money making venture with a few getting rich off the health problems and misfortunes of the average person. The system is broken because there is no oversight by anybody who doesn't have some vested interest in taking as much of your money as possible and giving you the least possible in return for it.

    I think that the distinction needs to be made between full-blown socialism and socialized medicine. I'm not sitting here advocating a system of government which has been shown to be, in many regards, even worse than capitalism (although some European countries do very well with modified socialist/capitalist hybrid systems) but instead I am in favor of a health care system that actually cares for the people it currently uses as piggy banks.

    And just FYI the people who come to the US for medical procedures are probably the wealthy elite of other countries. A fast growing trend is for Americans to fly to Asia or India and have medical treatment while on vacation at vastly reduced rates. So called "medical tourism"

    On another note I think you guys give way too much credit to Reagan but I'm not even going to get into that.
     
  18. PDXGS

    PDXGS Aloha... yes, Aloha, Oregon Member

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    I give your rant a 4out of 10...at least it's mecifully brief and to the point...

    Is this the same Israel that funds espionage against the US military?
    What makes you think that they are an ally?

    If you really want to make a change go work in a soup kitchen, medical clinic, VA home, etc.
     
  19. Zhivago

    Zhivago Everett, WA Member

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    Interestingly enough, most people know very little about Israel and the conflict with Palestine. I think most people assume that because they are an American ally and we prop them up financially, they must be the "good guys" in the war. If you do some research, you'll find that Israel has a huge political lobby in the US designed to make sure that is exactly what comes to mind when we hear Israel. What you don't hear about is how they give Palestinians land and then Israeli settlers move in and they annex the land back and push the Palestinians out by bulldozing their homes. What you don't hear about are the human rights violations and the oppressive check point system restricting the movements of an entire nation (if you could call Palestine a nation...which you cant...because Israel controls all their land). The Palestinians are hardly blameless but there are 2 sides to the conflict for sure. There's a lot of great documentaries about all this.
     
  20. Wierzbowski

    Wierzbowski Sherwood Member

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    I have to respectfully disagree. What you have just described is commonly known as a "market". Someone is providing a service (in this case medical care) for a fee. The service provider (let's say he's a doctor) is interested in charging you as much money as he can for the service he provides. His fee is limited to what the "market will bear" because there are other doctors who are capable of providing that same service for a lesser fee. The market dictates that doctors who charge too much for inferior service will be pruned from the market.

    Making money off the misfortune of others is not generally immoral or even unusual. Auto mechanics, plumbers, locksmiths, computer repair geeks, lawyers, electricians, fire fighters, and a ton of other people earn their livings primarily on the misfortunes of other people. These individuals have invested the time and money to be trained to become one of the relatively few people who can help people (in their time of misfortune) for a fee. I don't see how being a medical services provider is any different.

    And the federal government is going to make doctors and hospitals "care for the people" without using some sort of financial incentive? Are doctors and hospitals to become merely philanthropists because of the nature of the service they provide? Doctors and hospitals make a lot of money because the service that they provide is valuable. Doctors who provide more valuable services make more money than doctors who don't. The market determines value, as always.

    Exactly my point. The wealthy elite of other countries can afford to escape the socialized medicine of their own country while the proles are left to linger on the 12-month waiting list to get their cancer treated. Do you think that the wealthy elite of this country are going to stick around here and wait their turn to be treated with the rest of us working stiffs in a socialized medical system? Sadly, no. They will be boarding a jet to wherever they can get the highest quality, most expensive medical treatment available.