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Sounds like a good safe. My older Cannon safe was built like that. Good safe..
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Sounds like a good safe. My older Cannon safe was built like that. Good safe..
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My safes are bolted to a concrete floor, and the foundation wall using anchor bolts. That all sounds good but, it's a real good idea to make it very hard to get any sort of chain or harness around a safe; a pickup truck can generate a great deal of pull force if they manage get hold of the safe.
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They do make a LED combo dial light.
Amazon.com : Liberty Mechanical Dial Lock Security Safe Light 10929 Magnetic Gun Safe Accessory : Sports & Outdoors
I always have a small flash light on me as well so I could forego the LED light but I already bought the light years ago now.
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It may be worth mentioning that a lot of the handgun safes on the market and not very well designed and can be either picked or bypassed quite easily. This guy has quite a few vids illustrating such.
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Any decent plasma torch will need a 240v hookup which may or may not be easy to obtain, unless the thieves have a lot of time. A good Oxy-Acetylene torch kit on the other hand is lightweight, with a self-contained energy source.
There's a great video out there showing a guy with a simple angle grinder cutting through the side of safe in a few minutes.
It's true what you say though, if they want in, they'll get in.
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But he isn't cutting through a real safe in a few minutes. It's an RSC. Granted, he could cut through a safe with an angle grinder, but would take much longer. And a cutting torch? Most of the stuff inside would likely be destroyed. If a person were to have a decent alarm and a good safe, the cops could be there before the perp could get it open. At least in theory.
I posted the article as I just want people to be aware of what they're really buying, and not be surprised.
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A real safe is, to some degree or another, fireproof. A cutting torch would remove the outer layer quickly, and quietly. The fire proofing comes out next, the inner layer doesn't need a torch. My main point is a plasma torch requires high voltage and current, a good ground, both of which may be in short supply when time is of the essence. A gas torch requires neither. They accomplish the same thing.
Agreed 100% on a good alarm and a good safe.
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Any secure storage can be defeated with enough time and skill, from a simple storage locker to a world-class bank vault. All any of them will do is slow down a thief. A storage locker will slow down curious kids, and a bank vault will slow down a seasoned master-thief.
If all you have to worry about is curious kids, and can't afford better, then at least get a simple locking cabinet. If, on the other hand, you have a valuable collection that could attract the attention of a master thief, then you'd be wise to spend the money on a vault.
For most of us in the middle, something in the middle is what we can afford, and really all we need. The best rule of thumb that I've heard is to buy the best that you can afford now. Get something good, but don't keep your valuables in the closet with the thought that someday you'll save up and buy a really good safe. The "Residential Storage Container" that you have, is better than the "Safe" that you don't have!
If all you have to worry about is curious kids, and can't afford better, then at least get a simple locking cabinet. If, on the other hand, you have a valuable collection that could attract the attention of a master thief, then you'd be wise to spend the money on a vault.
For most of us in the middle, something in the middle is what we can afford, and really all we need. The best rule of thumb that I've heard is to buy the best that you can afford now. Get something good, but don't keep your valuables in the closet with the thought that someday you'll save up and buy a really good safe. The "Residential Storage Container" that you have, is better than the "Safe" that you don't have!
This. Safes are to keep out "the 90%" which consists of teenagers and tweakers. The other 10% are the pros and unless they have definite knowledge of your safe's contents, likely are going to be utilizing their talents on more lucrative targets. Like jewelers, etc. Professional safecrackers don't typically target usual residential dwellings. However, the 90% can do things like haul the entire safe out of your residence and take it somewhere to get it open at leisure. Which sometimes happens. Bubba gets a big, long chain and yanks it right off its bolts into the concrete. Or he tears away all the framing that surrounds it and levers it up into his pickup. Stuff like that.
No matter how well-made your safe is, be sure to have insurance just in case.
Those metal boxes made for the construction trade (like Jobox, et al) seem like a good idea but are contrary in design to what most gun people would buy. I've thought about it.
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If it's possible, it doesn't hurt to get to know neighbors to the degree where everyone keeps a keen eye, without a prying eye. Prevention is almost always cheaper than a cure. We stay in touch when things may be different owing to travel and that sort of thing. I realize this doesn't work for everyone.
Notes I copied from a woodworking forum on the subject of gun safes....
Video record of possessions -
Your best bet is off-site storage, be that physical or cloud-based. A video or two of the house and a spreadsheet with the details of some of your more special or high-value items can make it a lot easier to document and prove your loss.
Fire Protection -
If the ambient temperature within your safe or box reaches the ignition point of a particular item in that box, it doesn't matter whether it had direct contact with a flame or not; it's going to burn. Many things will melt or distort at much lower points. So the key to this is to keep the heat down in the box.
Metal radiates heat. A 10 gauge metal box may be able to soak up a fair amount of heat dependent on it's size and internal volume, but it is going to pass that heat into the interior sooner or later. Safe makers use materials like ceramic wool or concrete to absorb that radiant heat and keep the temperature down in the box.
Cheaper residential security containers (RSC, aka gun safes) and some fireproof security boxes use gypsum (drywall) as an insulating mechanism. The drywall contains a crap-load of water, which in turn absorbs a bunch of heat energy as it converts to steam. This tends to keep the interior of the RSCs to below the ignition point of paper for as long as the drywall has sufficient water to convert. Once it runs out, you have a steamy, slightly pressurized oven that can continue to rise in temperature. This also assumes that at no point during or prior did the steam find a way to escape, such as through a bad seal or poor construction.
Assuming your box survives the high heat of a full burn house fire without compromise, and it is cooled off quickly enough to prevent the interior temperature from rising to the ignition point, the next thing it has to survive is the deluge of water used to put the fire out. It's often quite a while before you can get to the contents, and by then, the box has set in a wet and ashy slurry, possibly buried under the rubble. So it might have to survive prolonged exposure to intense heat, a very rapid cooling off, a bunch of debris falling on it, and sitting in a pool of water for a prolonged period of time without compromise. That is a lot to ask of anything.
It's good that you have positioned your box/safe/RSC in a way to minimize it's exposure to other combustible materials. The quality and insulating choices of the container you have chosen, along with the type of fire exposure you anticipate, will be the predominant factors in what may or may not survive. I'd suggest putting documents in archival envelopes and then in freezer bags to minimize the risk of water exposure, assuming they survive the ambient heat.
If you ever want to understand just how much is marketing hype versus reality, take a look at the construction, standards, and testing of a TL rated safe versus a 'gun safe' or 'fire safe'. When insurers evaluate commercial fire and theft risk, real money is involved, and you end up with something very different and much heavier then a 'safe' from Home Depot or a sporting goods store.
In a serious whole-house fire, the lock-set is likely to melt, even in the nice metal S&G series. Even if the lock-set doesn't melt, there's a fair probability your glass-plate relock mechanism will fail under prolonged exposure to heat. Professional locksmiths will usually just cut or drill it at that point, and if it is a quality safe, that may take a while.
My floor cannot support the weight of the safe I lust after, which is a Graffunder E Series. Can't even support the weight of a really good RSC, like the Amesec BF series. So for guns, I make due with the best RSC I could get down my steps. But it is primarily for peace of mind against the impulsive smash & grab types until the cops can arrive, and not for dedicated and informed attempts to gain access over time, nor do I trust it a lick for fire protection. Jeremy's TL6x30 will run rings around anything most folks buy off the shelf, and it is minimum rated at 2 hours @ 1850° with an internal temperature below 350°. If you ever see a TL Rated safe next to a UL rated RSC like a gun safe, you will understand just how much of the RSC world is marketing.
A few gun-specific RSC thoughts:
- Internal hinges are a gimmick that unnecessarily consumes precious interior space. All hinges do is hold the door. The bolts are what secures it.
- All a key-locking dial does is use a key to lock the dial so it can't be turned. I actually think the quality digital locks have come far enough along that I'd prefer the convenience over mechanical. By quality, I mean Sargent & Greenleaf or comparable.
- Skip the marketing material, open the door, and look at the manufacturers plate statement of body construction. 2" of reinforced door thickness and 37 cross bolts makes no difference when one can go through the 14 gauge body with little more than a hammer and crowbar. 11 gauge body should be the minimum.
- The fire rating is mostly BS. The UL rating is mostly based on the specs of the fire proofing material rather than the overall safe design itself.
- Liberty makes good RSCs. I think the Fatboy series is very good value for the size and money. If you want something more than a typical RSC, but can't afford a real TL rated safe, I think very highly of the Amesec BF series. Just know that it will be a lot heavier and have less interior volume than a typical Liberty, Champion, or other 'gun safe'.
Video record of possessions -
Your best bet is off-site storage, be that physical or cloud-based. A video or two of the house and a spreadsheet with the details of some of your more special or high-value items can make it a lot easier to document and prove your loss.
Fire Protection -
If the ambient temperature within your safe or box reaches the ignition point of a particular item in that box, it doesn't matter whether it had direct contact with a flame or not; it's going to burn. Many things will melt or distort at much lower points. So the key to this is to keep the heat down in the box.
Metal radiates heat. A 10 gauge metal box may be able to soak up a fair amount of heat dependent on it's size and internal volume, but it is going to pass that heat into the interior sooner or later. Safe makers use materials like ceramic wool or concrete to absorb that radiant heat and keep the temperature down in the box.
Cheaper residential security containers (RSC, aka gun safes) and some fireproof security boxes use gypsum (drywall) as an insulating mechanism. The drywall contains a crap-load of water, which in turn absorbs a bunch of heat energy as it converts to steam. This tends to keep the interior of the RSCs to below the ignition point of paper for as long as the drywall has sufficient water to convert. Once it runs out, you have a steamy, slightly pressurized oven that can continue to rise in temperature. This also assumes that at no point during or prior did the steam find a way to escape, such as through a bad seal or poor construction.
Assuming your box survives the high heat of a full burn house fire without compromise, and it is cooled off quickly enough to prevent the interior temperature from rising to the ignition point, the next thing it has to survive is the deluge of water used to put the fire out. It's often quite a while before you can get to the contents, and by then, the box has set in a wet and ashy slurry, possibly buried under the rubble. So it might have to survive prolonged exposure to intense heat, a very rapid cooling off, a bunch of debris falling on it, and sitting in a pool of water for a prolonged period of time without compromise. That is a lot to ask of anything.
It's good that you have positioned your box/safe/RSC in a way to minimize it's exposure to other combustible materials. The quality and insulating choices of the container you have chosen, along with the type of fire exposure you anticipate, will be the predominant factors in what may or may not survive. I'd suggest putting documents in archival envelopes and then in freezer bags to minimize the risk of water exposure, assuming they survive the ambient heat.
If you ever want to understand just how much is marketing hype versus reality, take a look at the construction, standards, and testing of a TL rated safe versus a 'gun safe' or 'fire safe'. When insurers evaluate commercial fire and theft risk, real money is involved, and you end up with something very different and much heavier then a 'safe' from Home Depot or a sporting goods store.
In a serious whole-house fire, the lock-set is likely to melt, even in the nice metal S&G series. Even if the lock-set doesn't melt, there's a fair probability your glass-plate relock mechanism will fail under prolonged exposure to heat. Professional locksmiths will usually just cut or drill it at that point, and if it is a quality safe, that may take a while.
My floor cannot support the weight of the safe I lust after, which is a Graffunder E Series. Can't even support the weight of a really good RSC, like the Amesec BF series. So for guns, I make due with the best RSC I could get down my steps. But it is primarily for peace of mind against the impulsive smash & grab types until the cops can arrive, and not for dedicated and informed attempts to gain access over time, nor do I trust it a lick for fire protection. Jeremy's TL6x30 will run rings around anything most folks buy off the shelf, and it is minimum rated at 2 hours @ 1850° with an internal temperature below 350°. If you ever see a TL Rated safe next to a UL rated RSC like a gun safe, you will understand just how much of the RSC world is marketing.
A few gun-specific RSC thoughts:
- Internal hinges are a gimmick that unnecessarily consumes precious interior space. All hinges do is hold the door. The bolts are what secures it.
- All a key-locking dial does is use a key to lock the dial so it can't be turned. I actually think the quality digital locks have come far enough along that I'd prefer the convenience over mechanical. By quality, I mean Sargent & Greenleaf or comparable.
- Skip the marketing material, open the door, and look at the manufacturers plate statement of body construction. 2" of reinforced door thickness and 37 cross bolts makes no difference when one can go through the 14 gauge body with little more than a hammer and crowbar. 11 gauge body should be the minimum.
- The fire rating is mostly BS. The UL rating is mostly based on the specs of the fire proofing material rather than the overall safe design itself.
- Liberty makes good RSCs. I think the Fatboy series is very good value for the size and money. If you want something more than a typical RSC, but can't afford a real TL rated safe, I think very highly of the Amesec BF series. Just know that it will be a lot heavier and have less interior volume than a typical Liberty, Champion, or other 'gun safe'.
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I worked for Pro steel in college. Pro steel made the safes for browning. They still do I believe. I saw how they were made. They make a good safe. There are even better out there. A good 60-75 minute fire safe that holds 28 guns or more is starting at $2,000. If I had the money, next time I build a home it will be a total concrete room with a vault door. If I don't have the money I will have several safes. Giant safes that hold 50 guns or more are way to heavy.
Something I was told by a gun smith that had a bunch of guns that were in a fire rated safe and he was charged with fixing them the best he could. He said having your safe in the middle of the home wasn't good. Having the safe against an outside wall is the better place because of the heat that develops in the center of a home as it burns. Just some food for thought
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I'd say 99%. I bet less than 10 crooks in my state will take the time and have the knowledge to open a real safe.
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No comment.
Last Edited:
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LOL, I've not only provided the 240v hookup, I've also got a plasma cutter in the garage bay and a drawer full of angle grinders and cutting wheels in the shop where the safe's located. Can you say one stop thievery?
Fortunately, my main security concern is grandchildren, and so far I haven't taught them how to use the bigboy tools.
You forgot "Lasers" man. Gotta' have Lasers.
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Mine will have a 5'x7' door to get the ammo pallets in.
Vault Door for Sale | Best Vault Doors Made in USA
Vault doors, storm shelter doors and safe room doors for home or business. Best American made vault doors & custom vault doors for sale in USA - 800-299-6929
www.vaultprousa.com
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Friend of mine created blueprints for a conversion of a downstairs closet to a "safe room". A former teammate of mine has a wall length bookcase that opens to reveal his safe door to his armsroom. Now that is what I want. lol.
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