The Oregon Standoff: Understanding LaVoy Finicum’s Death & The Management Of BLM Land

[bbbass]

I thought the shots from the FBI came at the second roadblock... am I wrong?

 

[bbbass]

What if, everyone ignored the take over of the public building that was not in use?

I'm thinking a whole lot of nothing but....

Guess we will never know for sure.

If the answer was nothing, then who really killed him?

Generally, the gov is not going to let you take over and occupy a building indefinitely. Unless you are "Occupy" of course. In this case, IIRC Obama and our governess/queen decided they had had enough of all the bluster coming out of that campsite, and especially from Finicum. They seized on an opportunity to arrest him on the road, which is typical of such arrests, they are most often performed away from vulnerable locations/people. IMO they didn't set out to kill LaVoy.

In this video from inside the truck driven by LaVoy Finicum on the day of his shooting (Warning: Graphic) you can clearly hear the officers shouting at Mr. Finicum to "get on the ground" after he exits the vehicle and moments before he is fatally shot (timestamp: 5:41). You are correct that there had already been shots fired at the vehicle, and I assume these shots were due to Mr. Finicum nearly hitting an officer with his truck while trying to avoid a road-block as seen in this aerial footage of the chase and shooting.

I think that the shots fired at the truck after it had stopped were likely unnecessary/unjustified, but the actual shooting of Mr. Finicum seems more clear cut: He was reaching into his jacket just before he was shot, while not complying with commands to lay on the ground.

I read the entire transcripts, nine interviews I think, of the after-action interviews by the supervising officials, IA, (required) with the LEOs involved, except for the FBI wasn't in those. The LEOs never said they planned ahead of time to kill LaVoy, nor ever mentioned instructions to do so, but of course they were aware that he generally was armed and had made threats not to be taken alive, and that was part of the pre-dawn briefing.

I don't know remember after all this time exactly what happened the first time they were stopped, except that there was a lot of yelling and LaVoy took off from there.

At the second stop, the roadblock, LaVoy attempted approached at a high rate of speed and was fired upon by one of the LEOs, that fired 3 shots that all hit the approaching vehicle. After LaVoy almost ran into the officer at the left corner of the LEO truck is when I thought the FBI fired at the truck, but I might be wrong about that one. LaVoys pickup then ran out of traction in the deep snow. We all know what happened to LaVoy after that. Meanwhile, the LEOs, at least one, deployed flash/bangs and pepper balls into the pickup. These were mistaken by the occupants for gunshots or being shot at. Lots of confusion. The audio and the testimony of the occupants show the fog of the moments and do not reflect any accuracy of what really happened.

 

[bbbass]

@papersoldier

This is taken from an OregonLive article date 2017:

Investigators said a member of the FBI's elite Hostage Rescue Team fired at Finicum as his 2015 Dodge pickup truck crashed into a snow bank at a roadblock on U.S. 395. Finicum had just sped away from a surprise traffic stop on the rural highway

So, apparently my memory was correct that the location of the FBI at the time one of them fired his weapon at the truck was at the roadblock, not at the first stop. Seems as justified as the deputy that fired on them as they sped towards the roadblock. Dumb to lie about it!!

 

[papersoldier]

Generally, the gov is not going to let you take over and occupy a building indefinitely. Unless you are "Occupy" of course. In this case, IIRC Obama and our governess/queen decided they had had enough of all the bluster coming out of that campsite, and especially from Finicum. They seized on an opportunity to arrest him on the road, which is typical of such arrests, they are most often performed away from vulnerable locations/people. IMO they didn't set out to kill LaVoy.




I read the entire transcripts, nine interviews I think, of the after-action interviews by the supervising officials, IA, (required) with the LEOs involved, except for the FBI wasn't in those. The LEOs never said they planned ahead of time to kill LaVoy, nor ever mentioned instructions to do so, but of course they were aware that he generally was armed and had made threats not to be taken alive, and that was part of the pre-dawn briefing.

I don't know remember after all this time exactly what happened the first time they were stopped, except that there was a lot of yelling and LaVoy took off from there.

At the second stop, the roadblock, LaVoy attempted approached at a high rate of speed and was fired upon by one of the LEOs, that fired 3 shots that all hit the approaching vehicle. After LaVoy almost ran into the officer at the left corner of the LEO truck is when I thought the FBI fired at the truck, but I might be wrong about that one. LaVoys pickup then ran out of traction in the deep snow. We all know what happened to LaVoy after that. Meanwhile, the LEOs, at least one, deployed flash/bangs and pepper balls into the pickup. These were mistaken by the occupants for gunshots or being shot at. Lots of confusion. The audio and the testimony of the occupants show the fog of the moments and do not reflect any accuracy of what really happened.

Thanks for the write-up! I'll have to see about finding the transcripts online since this whole situation is very interesting to me.

 

[bbbass]

Thanks for the write-up! I'll have to see about finding the transcripts online since this whole situation is very interesting to me.

Not sure if they are still available. I read them shortly after the incident, then when I looked for them a year or more ago I was unable to locate them. I might try again and if I find them I will let you know. Interviews were at the Deschutes County Sheriff's office.

 

[Mikej]

Not sure if they are still available. I read them shortly after the incident, then when I looked for them a year or more ago I was unable to locate them. I might try again and if I find them I will let you know. Interviews were at the Deschutes County Sheriff's office.

Man, starting this damned topic up again. What for? Wasn't there enough back when this happened for everyone on this board? A bunch of darkness at that time cast over Oregon. I'm not railing against you Mr BBBass, just remembering what it was like around here for a time. I realize too, that I have the choice to read, or not.

 

[bbbass]

Man, starting this damned topic up again. What for? Wasn't there enough back when this happened for everyone on this board? A bunch of darkness at that time cast over Oregon. I'm not railing against you Mr BBBass, just remembering what it was like around here for a time. I realize too, that I have the choice to read, or not.

Yup, I had the same thoughts when I first saw this thread. If I'm going to participate, I'd rather talk about aspects of it that don't include the actions after Finicum exited the car. But there are a lot of distortions and conspiracy theories often bandied about, so I'm trying to provide useful info. And I do remember what members went thru just after the incident, I hope we can avoid going there again.

bb

 

[Goosebrown]

A little experiment folks here can try.

For whatever reason, speeding or DUI checkpoint, the next time you have a road encounter with a police officer.

Don't pull over or stop. Speed up and try to avoid them.

When you do stop.

Immediately get out of the car.

Haphazardly walk around shouting and reach for your cellphone.

Report back here with findings.

Thanks!

It seems so obvious. No one else was shot. But no one else was behaving like a jack bubblegum

 

[bbbass]

@papersoldier

I have a link to try: http://sheriff.deschutes.org/Media/OIS-Updates/Finicum_Redacted_Web_3102016.pdf

It works for me... let me know if you have trouble getting it in pdf, I will try to post the article that contains the link.

Here's a link to the press release that talks about the felonies committed both in the occupation and during the road stop, as well as the justification for use of force: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct..._8_press.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2ziyJ3rTqqxnR57G5tNS81

 

[Member 5605]

A truck that held minors.

Who was the minor? The same one who screamed "I'm pregnant" a lot but willingly put herself at risk in this situation?

pffff

I have no sympathy for people who try and be an elite class and then try and leverage it to make somebody treat them differently.

 

[orygun]

A little experiment folks here can try.

For whatever reason, speeding or DUI checkpoint, the next time you have a road encounter with a police officer.

Don't pull over or stop. Speed up and try to avoid them.

When you do stop.

Immediately get out of the car.

Haphazardly walk around shouting and reach for your cellphone.

Report back here with findings.

Thanks!

No thanks. I saw that film. Didn't work out so well.

 

[clearconscience]

Pretty sure this dead horse doesn't need another beating.

 

[Idaho44]

It all started long, long ago with "Shays Rebellion" and even before that. This is not relevant to current events since history is written by the winners, not the losers. How did all the the "Public Land" become available to the "public"? Why should a select few have 'rights' to it? History is your source! I wonder if the 'blue bucket' will ever be found?

And if you need some lite reading: Malheur County targeted for gold, uranium mines

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I understand Lavoy Finicum's death. He didn't listen to police, he reached into his jacket anyway, and they shot him dead.

Or maybe he was reaching for a wound on his left side. There was an officer to his left pointing some kind of weapon at him in the aerial video.

 

[Mikej]

Or maybe he was reaching for a wound on his left side. There was an officer to his left pointing some kind of weapon at him in the aerial video.

As I recall they found a gun on him. And yeah, certainly with some crazy that states publicly "I won't be taken alive" I would imagine protocol would be guns drawn for LEOs.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

How did all the the "Public Land" become available to the "public"? Why should a select few have 'rights' to it?

A grazing allotment is a separate title for a specific surface use. You don't just go out and apply for grazing rights. A grazing allotment must be adjacent to land you own. When you buy the land you own, the attached grazing allotment is figured into the purchase price. You pay (in effect) taxes on the grazing allotment, since it's part of the assessed valuation of the property you own. Technically, you own a severed right of use on the land within your grazing allotment. It's like a mining claim, which is for mineral rights. A grazing allotment is for surface rights. Usually, water rights are part of the allotment, since it would be useless without them. The public lands outside of national parks, like the national forests, are to be used for the public good, not locked up and preserved. When you have public lands that are suitable for grazing the government mandate is that such land should be used for its best purpose. Some complain that the ranchers are getting welfare, since the grazing fees aren't competitive with the rental market for grazing land. That's a red herring. The fees are to be established such that they pay for management of the grazing allotment program, not to raise money at market rates for the government.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

As I recall they found a gun on him. And yeah, certainly with some crazy that states publicly "I won't be taken alive" I would imagine protocol would be guns drawn for LEOs.

They find guns on unarmed people all the time.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I thought the shots from the FBI came at the second roadblock... am I wrong?

There were shots fired at the first roadblock.

 

[awshoot]

They find guns on unarmed people all the time.

Interesting, though less than 100% conclusive I would say. One question I have is whether LaVoy owned that model of pistol. If the answer is yes, that makes planting less likely. If no, then more likely.

The other question I have is whether any of the officers or agents around him in the video, ever worked in Baltimore. If yes, then it was almost certainly planted.

 

[Goosebrown]

Or maybe he was reaching for a wound on his left side. There was an officer to his left pointing some kind of weapon at him in the aerial video.

Reach for anything in that case and it's a good shooting.

He resisted arrest like a Chicago street hood and died.

Play stupid games and win stupid prizes.

Honestly this issue is dead as Finicum is dead.