The myth of the "custom built" 1911/Rule of Diminished Returns

[wichaka]

There a few things to consider...but is still a bit of apples to oranges.

Quality wise, with a Colt you are getting more of a hand fit gun, along with better quality parts to start out with, and put together by armorers.

But don't leave out Dan Wesson, they are full of better parts as well.

Springfield, while full of MIM parts, which don't seem to break as much as some others do, still is a production gun put together by assemblers.

Feature for feature, you will always pay more for a Colt than a Springfield, and again there's a reason.

I have run into a few Springfields that were out of spec, but is not the norm. One such TRP would not take an aftermarket sear, as the pin placement was off. So had to keep the stock sear, and upgrade the other parts as the customer wanted.

Even with 1911's that look much like the semi-custom guns (sorry 'penguin!), there's a reason why they are cheaper. There has to be cost savings somewhere, which means corners are cut.

As MountainBear stated;
"I would much prefer to start with the Rock Island Armory 1911 as a base gun. The steel is better and I have found them to be closer to GI spec than the Springfield."

As for steel, am not convinced as I don't think the Phillipine made gun uses anything better than Brazil does. The GI spec thing matters little if one is looking for a base gun to start doing upgrades with.

As for RIA quality, I've seen the usual reliability issues, out of spec parts etc.
For 300-400+ gun, they are what they are...so don't expect the quality of a Wilson, or the factory support you'd get with an American company.
I really don't see them as any better or worse than a Springfield. I've seen some RIA's that really sing, and some fall flat on their face with the first magazine being shot...same with Springfield.

Gunner3456, I hope I answered your question. If not, give it another shot.

If I had the choice of a base gun to start a build from, it would be a Series 70 Colt, or older model.
If I was starting a build from the ground up, I would choose Caspian.

Hilton Yam has some good articles on 1911's, you'd be well advised to read. Good basic information any 1911 owner, or perspective owner should have knowledge of.
I don't agree with everything he states, as he is on the conservative side of things...but it's better to be that way, than have problems with you gun when you really need it to work for you.

http://www.10-8performance.com/Articles.html

 

[Gunner3456]

You are getting right up there with the price of the Colt. In fact my SA Loaded Champion cost me the same as my Colt XSE Commander. Sometimes you can even find the Colt XSE cheaper.

That's what I thought. Thanks.

Beautiful guns.

 

[Gunner3456]

Gunner3456, I hope I answered your question. If not, give it another shot.

If I had the choice of a base gun to start a build from, it would be a Series 70 Colt, or older model.
If I was starting a build from the ground up, I would choose Caspian.

Thanks.

I have a Kimber and want a shorter barrel instead.

After all everyone has said, I think I'll go with the Colt. This is a stupid reason I know, but like the Harley, there's something in the nostalgia of it, as long as it's good enough.

 

[mortre]

This is more for the expert's or smiths that are in the know. But from what I understand, Colt recently went away from a lot of the work by hand. And have started full CNC machining and went more towards "assemblers" as opposed to "smith's" hand fitting everything. How much truth is there in this? Of course this only pertains to their new 1911's.

I had a hankering for an original colt, still do actually. But I somewhat sated it by buying a USGI Ithaca. Speaking of an original Colt, does anyone know the serial number range of their commander sized guns made in 1980 (my birth year)?

 

[wichaka]

There are two models of Commander made back then, and each has their own serial number designation.

For 1980;

Commander CLW042849 - CLW045253
Combat Comander 70BS97567 - 80BS9008
Nickel plated will have a 70SC prefix.

Commander has the alloy frame, while the Combat Commander has a steel frame.

A little info., for the use of the name Commander to speak of shorter barreled 1911's. The Commander is the name of a Colt model of the 1911, which has a 4 1/4" barrel. While most other makers use 4" barrels.

Colt went to CNC machines to up their production, as they were still using older style machines that couldn't produce many at a time. They still employ armorers, and still have more hands on with their guns.

I think another reason why they are more spendy is because of union workers. If I recall correctly, they are part of UAW.

 

[mortre]

Thanks for the clarification Wichaka. I had heard that they went to CNC because they had lost most of their "Master" armorer's due to age and retirement. And were having trouble with quality control issues due to less experienced and qualified people to do the job. Gotta love internet rumors.

Also, thanks for the serial number ranges! Another question, I see the serial number range starts at 70BS (series 70) and ends at 80BS (Series 80). I thought that the series 80 didn't start until 1982ish?

 

[wichaka]

Around March or so of 1980 they started the 80BS numbering system for Combat Commanders only, starting with 1001. While the other models didn't change their designation til the 1983 change over.

The transition to the Series 80 or the addition of the firing pin safety system was in 1983...give or take a few months. And you'll find some models with the 80BS designator without the FPS. Colt seems to want to use up all their parts on the assembly lines.

 

[SSG]

Not to throw mud at the 1911, but my custom is in the shop, again... and after getting a ribbing from the gunsmith on my 'adjustments' I have to say, that I am getting a little tired of the concept that one has to be a mechanical engineer to keep a 1911 running....honestly, if I can't figure it out, and need a gunsmith on staff to own this thing.........

I really hate to say this but my 'Custom 1911' is making my 'all day long trigger' 'can't hit a barn door'..'combat tupperware' Glock look pretty good...atleast bullets come out of it more often then not...

 

[mortre]

Could you give us a little more information SSG? Who made the 1911, who did the work, what kind of problems are you getting, and with what ammo/mags? I've had the occasional hiccup, but nothing that has required any more work than removing a burr/blemished feed ramp. And in all honestly that burr/blem was only causing a FTF on the first round in the mag once every 15 or 20 mag's. And only with ammo that had a specific ogive.

 

[wichaka]

The gun was designed to function. It's a machine. If it's built correctly, it'll run. It doesn't have a choice.

 

[Father of four]

Right. It's a machine. I bought a quality gun and hope that since I paid alot for it it want break down on me. I don't want to do upgrades to it. I purchased it as is with no future upgrades in mind. My Raptor 2 should last the rest of my life time and probably my sons if he takes care of it when it passes to him. When he grows up he'll probably have a laser gun and will just let my old Kimber sit in a box in the attic.. Oops,. I'm rambling!

Really, I think the only way to not have a diminished return is to purchase something that people will want in the future when you are ready to sell it. Hopefully you will get what you paid for it and maybe a little more. Even with something that's "Custom Built".

 

[SSG]

Could you give us a little more information SSG? Who made the 1911, who did the work, what kind of problems are you getting, and with what ammo/mags? I've had the occasional hiccup, but nothing that has required any more work than removing a burr/blemished feed ramp. And in all honestly that burr/blem was only causing a FTF on the first round in the mag once every 15 or 20 mag's. And only with ammo that had a specific ogive.

It's a Les Baer Match slide/LB Match Barrel built on a Para Ord Hicap frame...all Wilson/Brown guts...Bomar/Fiber sights..on and on...started off getting built up by a guy in Albany...that did great machine work but evidentely needed some more practice with builds...took to another guy got it running....then like the first time...grip safety issue...honestly, I think the inherent problem is that the trigger bow get's bent by usuage..then the grip safety goes...so it just needs adjustment...maybe it's something that happens after thousands of rounds....

It's a tack driver..feeds, ejects smooth...Slide rides the frame like it's on ball bearings...

I suspect this is just coming down to working on the guts a little bit...but it's frustrating...this isn't rocket science, but it had me stumped...

 

[mortre]

Have you pulled out and inspected the disconnecter? Is it possible that the disconnecter could be banging up the top edge of the trigger bow when the barrel unlocks and the pistol goes into it's recoil cycle? That could cause the grip safety to stop functioning correctly.

 

[Tilos]

SSG:
I would be honored to stand next to you at the range and compare targets.
I must warn you I use 2 hands to shoot my "block" though, without thrusting my hip into the bench.

I confess to tweaking, but most internal parts for my gun are less than $10, can be bought in a dozen or so places and be in my mail box in 2 days.
I never have been scolded by a "gunsmith" for mistreating my gun and never took it anywhere to be "fixed" or "looked at".

If my "block" doesn't go bang, it's usually those stink-en plated Wolf primers.
Oh, my Block is also a sub-caliber too.

How long before you get your gun back?

Be careful here, these guys will try an intervention to get you back into the 1911 fold

Tilos

 

[SSG]

It's looking like it needs the Dlask trigger swapped out for a nice Wilson or something, take up that play...my other Para has one...never a problem...it's for sale..**** maybe when I get it back, I'll keep it...it's very accurate.

Tilos - My Block is up for grabs too...decent gun...I always shoot off hand, I figured a bad guy won't wait for me to find a bench and sit down...PM me, let's go to the range and do some shooting...I'll get ya in as a guest.