The myth of the "custom built" 1911/Rule of Diminished Returns

[wichaka]

Nope,

Series 70 was a specific model that Colt produced from 1971-83, then started a 'Re-Issue' model, or new Series 70 in approx. 2001-02, and is still production today, but without the collett barrel bushing, and with a few upgrades.

People refer 1911's with no firing pin safety as 'Series 70' guns, which is not correct. If it was, what Series are the original 1911's called?

See the confusion?

Series 70 & 80 are Colt terms only, and refer to no other 1911.

You may see that term being used on some web sites, even some other gun makers make the same mistake.

 

[Just Jim]

Well, since I pulled the collet out and put in a regular bushing is it still a series 70? Before the series 70 they were called the Commercial and had a C in the serial number to designate it as one. I think

jj

 

[wichaka]

If you have a Colt, and the rollmark on the left slide of the slide says Series 70, then it is. If it does not say Series 70 on the left side of your slide, its not.

I've not seen any other 1911 that will have any markings anywhere on it that states Series 70, even the box.

Ok, 'nuff said bout that!

As long as one can get a 1911 for a good price, then upgrade it...you've done well. Just need to crunch the numbers to see if its worth it. Which is why its good to get a stripped down model, so you're not paying for something you'll only change out later.

 

[shoggoth80]

"As long as one can get a 1911 for a good price, then upgrade it...you've done well. Just need to crunch the numbers to see if its worth it. Which is why its good to get a stripped down model, so you're not paying for something you'll only change out later. "

Sounds like solid advice to me.

 

[SSG]

Certainly for me, starting out separating what I needed from all the goodies offered can be daunting...

You know when I see some kid with a $1000 exhaust system and a wing on a $500 car, I figure, like me, they saw the guy coming from a mile down the road.

When it comes to accuracy, I have heard some really neat stories about guys with $300 Norincos putting a little money in the right places and getting some nice results...just never saw it myself..

I think after a while, one wants a piece of art, or a shooter, or maybe a little of both...

I am happy if my guns just feed my reloads these days...

 

[wichaka]

I am happy if my guns just feed my reloads these days...

What I'm about to say is in no way disrespectful to you and your post, but I think it shows the quality or lack of, in what we pay for these days.

Your post reminds me of a quote I heard some time ago: "If we set our goals low, we're sure to hit them every time."

If all we expect is to be happy if the guns "just" feed our reloads, then our expectations are too low.

Like I quoted above, if the gun is made properly, set up right, it'll feed anything that is in spec, it has to, its a machine, it doesn't have a choice.

Hilton Yam said it so well:
It is not the same as the GI issue gun that was carefully handcrafted at the Colt factory nearly a century ago. When Colt first started producing the gun way back in the day, they were the only ones making it - their parts, their mags, ammo to their spec.
The design has been around for so long that any particular 1911 is now made with parts made to various specs that have wandered away from the original for one reason or another, and is fed with ammo and mags that have similarly changed or evolved. This is the reason why the 1911 does well with tuning by a skilled hand, something that it typically does not receive at the modern factory. The gun also needs proper cleaning and maintenance to reach its full potential. Take care of your 1911 and it will do its job for you like nothing else can.

This sums up why the 191 takes a bad rap, because its not set up and made to the proper specs enough to get a reliable gun. Its not the design that's the flaw, its the maker these days.

I agree with 'penguin, I'll take a Colt any day over a semi-custom. About the only way you'll know a semi-custom will shoot better is placing it in a ransom rest. Even then, if properly set up, you'll not see too much difference.

But like I said...a VW will get you to your destination as well as a Mercedes, and a properly set up 1911 will do the same. The rest is all personal taste, nothing more.

 

[Tilos]

Like the OP, I have a friend who lives guns, competes locally, and has risen to the top in most handgun games.
He owns an unrelated business but also works in a gun store and has owned every "custom", tweeked, 1911 you could mention.

One time, while waiting in line the 2 years for his latest 1911 to be "built", bored with those already owned, he bought a Sig.
He was amazed at the "out of the box" performance/accuracy of the Sig and that became his "shooting" gun.

His "custom" 1911s slowly trickled to the gun store to be sold...for big bucks.

The 1911 is not one of interest in my gun world but I did own one once and traded it for a 10" TC 30 Herit!

Tilos

PS: I never owned a Sig...yet.

EDIT: to clarify HE BOUGHT A SIG P220!!!...not a 1911

 

[SSG]

No offense taken...it's not lower standards, it's about being realistic with what is out there to shoot....

If you grab and AR15....223/308 and want to shoot it...and therefore, reload...start taking Prozac right now....Glocks too..

I have yet to stand next to a guy that shoots better then me, that doesn't reload...and as part of that quest to get a little better each day...we find the flaws in ourselves and our equipment......

I couldn't help laugh when some Glock guys ran 1000 rds through their gun...melted guide rod, 4 failure to feeds on factory ammo...and they saw that as a victory...my personal experience on reloading for a Glock 21 can be likened to 'running my balls over a belt sander'

It's no wonder only two handguns passed the military trials, again on factory ammo...

Some of us that actually shoot thousands of rounds per year...just want to concentrate on shooting...not trying making our guns shoot...

The good news, is that if you stick with this for a while..you learn to design loads, work on guns, shoot better, meet some nice peeps, and generally learn a whole bunch...

 

[Gunner3456]

Good stuff.

 

[Tilos]

Seems everyone has a Glock story and I'm not trying to start another Glock war...here's my story.

When Glocks came out I was a wheelgun guy but bought one to see what was the deal.

My measure of a gun is it must shoot better than me from the bench so when a shot "goes out", it's me, not the gun.

Every reload I could dream up produced softball size groups..and I spent half my range time looking for range mushrooms...sold it!

Fast forward to NOW, Glock with Storm Lake barrel will shoot better than me, with my reloads.

Lets not forget, Glocks are made for function/defense, not accuracy and gun games!!

Tilos

 

[mortre]

I will respectfully disagree with the OP. I've owned quite a few Springfield's and 2 Wilson's. I could tell quite a bit of difference. Now, if I had the knowledge, equipment and time I am sure I could make one of the Springer's shoot like my Wilson's. But I don't have any of that.

And Wilson at least does mill their slides and frames, I do not know about Baer or Nighthawk or Brown.

 

[Gunner3456]

Since the thread is about diminishing returns, and the function of the basic machine, I'm surprised no one has asked about the very basic Springfield GI. It can be bought new for about $450 if you shop around. Jack at Dan-Dee Sales recently sold a new one for about that.

So, we can go from about +/- $450 to $2,000+ really fast and still have a 1911.

Where do some of you 1911 pros like Wichaka and others place the Springfield GI?


PS Posted while Mortre was posting.

 

[mortre]

I am not a pro, but I am looking at getting a 1911 base gun to "customize". And the Springfield G.I. Champion is what I intend to get.

 

[Boats]

The only "high bucks" 1911 I covet is the Springfield Professional Model. I don't care that it is not "the name" in megabucks pistols. I don't care if the national match quality forgings began life at IMBEL in Brazil. What I care about is that when these other famous boutique makers complained about the FBI HRT's rigorous accuracy demands along with flawless functioning, Springfield Custom just answered the call and put up the performance, winning the most severe 1911 trial in a long damn while.

The accuracy requirement, however, was another requirement that bordered on the impossible. This stipulated that the pistol fire three consecutive 10 shot groups no larger than 1.5 inches at 25 yards from a Ransom Rest using service ammunition. The pistol then had 20,000 rounds fired through it and was tested again for accuracy. No more than a 15% reduction was permitted.

<broken link removed>

And that extra measure of repeatable accuracy with fault free function is what you are paying for if these higher end manufacturers or custom makers are worth their salt.

You can get the reliability at $800.00. I have several times over now. You will not be posting 10 shot groups at 1.5 inches with off the shelf ammo in any but the rarest of lottery win odds $800 1911s. The extra cash is spent ensuring you have a winning ticket and not a lucky buy.

 

[SSG]

FYI: Springfields GI model is junk...crap trigger, crap accuracy, and without ramped barrel, your not shooting reloads....if you want to know what kind of crap grampa hit the beach with in WWII, this is it. Everyone who gets one is working on fixing all this from day one...

Springfield Pro...based on the FBI model...we waited a year for ours...6 mos past delivery promised date...slide was so tight we had to devise a 'way' to rack the slide..not a bad thing really....came in a Walmart blue plastic standard handgun case, that still had the sticker/label from whom ever built it...amatuer hour...no manuel, no paperwork, no range test info.... Decent gun, shot fine, but not worth $3k and a year's wait.

If you going to go custom order...Ed Brown is the best...peeps to talk to on the phone, about 45 days you will have a gun, if you change your mind, they don't care, they will keep the gun...they believe that much in their product...check out the Kobra Carry, very nice...

Wilson is next..solid rep, good peeps, smart....they will send you a range test, a logo case, ammo recipe info...if I was shooting competitions, this is who I would go with...only because they really understand accuracy and how to achieve it...

Les Baer - We had an SRP that wouldn't feed all the time...nice wood presentation box, decent gun, but the Para mags are the reason they didn't get the FBI contract back in the day..not reliable..and problem with the frames...it's an outfit that's sliding on past reps, and making peeps wait a year for a 3k gun..


They all make decent high end stuff...once you have put ten of these high end 1911s in your hands, they all shoot great, all have decent triggers, all hit the target...at that point, if you have $2500-3k...the question is how much BS are you going to put up with to get the gun....like I said...Ed Brown is the best this way..then Wilson...if you like to suffer..the go LB and Springfield.

I am literaly running to a gun smith right now to bring custom 1911 to get 'worked'...all high end stuff...grip safety issue, plunger pin issues...trigger issues...

If you guys aren't convinced...I got some custom 45s for sale...you can have them...

Help, help...where can I find a Sig?

 

[KENOC]

Just buy a Fusion and be done with it. Custom order it however you want, you get a quality firearm for $1400 or so...

 

[wichaka]

Springfields are not bad guns, one just needs to put them in perspective...they are a production made gun, nothing more.
They may not have the fancy finishes like Kimber etc., but at any given time, a Springfield will out shoot a Kimber, a Kimber will outshoot a Colt and so on.

One thing about Springfields, is that they use the very same small parts from the GI model all the way to and including the TRP. The same sears, disconnectors, slide stops...pretty much every small part is used in all those models.
What's disheartening, is that Springfields small parts in the SS models are not SS, they are flash chromed carbon steel. Not so with Colt, when you buy a SS model, you get solid SS parts.

I've seen Mil-Specs keep up with a TRP, as far as accuracy. In all the Springfields I've had on the bench, the best bang for the buck meaning price for features is the Loaded model. For the extra money one has to pay to get a TRP, its not worth what you get.
Tight slide to frame fit is way over rated, and remember the original design did not call for such a tight fit, so something will give...and that's reliability when things get dirty.

The Springfield GI is a good base gun to start with. I recommend models like those for a starter 1911. The owner can then change what they want/need...and not have to pay for features they may not want.

I tend to be a Colt person, but pack a worked over Springfield Loaded most of the time. Because of the finish, which is truck tough, am not concerned about wear marks etc. Will just have it re-parked when it gets bad enough.
But its possible to get a glass smooth slide/frame fit, and great accuracy with the cheap junk 2 piece barrel they have.

Am not sure what the ramped barrel has to do with reloads. Been reloading 45 for years, 'nary a problem. I've reloaded some of my cases so many times, you can hardly see the head stamp anymore.
They didn't have ramped barrels in 1911, and they performed fine, and still do. Ramped barrels can help in alloy framed guns, to keep frame wear down.
Now if you're talkin' Super 38, yep I would go with a ramped barrel. At the pressures they have these days, a fully supported case head is a good thing.
A Super 38 case head/webbing is not as thick as a 45 case, so they do better with a ramped/supported chamber.

I have had more than a few Sigs on the bench. They had a lot of problems to the point where they stopped production for a bit to get things worked out. The external extractors caused a lot of problems. Can't adjust an external extractor, Kimber had problems with them too...which is why they went back to the old tried and true! Guess ol JMB knew a thing or six!

As for 1.5" groups, I look at combat accuracy, not bullseye. If you can consistently print the rounds in the size of your open hand at anytime...it'll work.

Would I ever pay 2K for a 1911? Only if it was an original old Colt...other than that, no.

 

[MountainBear]

I would much prefer to start with the Rock Island Armory 1911 as a base gun. The steel is better and I have found them to be closer to GI spec than the Springfield. I have had several Springfield that were way out of spec. More fitting was required to fit small parts. I have built a couple with the Rock Island, one with a Colt Series 80, and a couple with basic GI Springfield. I would rank the Rock Island one, the Colt two (although if it were a series 70, it would have been better), and the Springfield three.

The only thing I dislike about the RIA guns is the crap on the bottom of the dust cover. For a full custom gun on that frame, I would weld that up. I have not tried Fusion or Caspian...

 

[Gunner3456]

-snip-
I tend to be a Colt person, but pack a worked over Springfield Loaded most of the time. Because of the finish, which is truck tough, am not concerned about wear marks etc. Will just have it re-parked when it gets bad enough.
But its possible to get a glass smooth slide/frame fit, and great accuracy with the cheap junk 2 piece barrel they have.

Thanks.

When you buy a Loaded, how close are you getting to the price of a Colt?

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Thanks.

When you buy a Loaded, how close are you getting to the price of a Colt?

You are getting right up there with the price of the Colt. In fact my SA Loaded Champion cost me the same as my Colt XSE Commander. Sometimes you can even find the Colt XSE cheaper.

SA Loaded Champion


Colt Commander XSE