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No joke! I'd rather have the ACOG or irons. That's just more weight. Throw that on a 16" M16 variant. No thanks. Glad I didn't have to deal with that.

My kid laughs at me. He takes his scope out and red dot and I nail his crap equal with Iron Sites. What you grow up on SON, what you grow up on ;)
 
Humble opinion, if you need that much magnification, a 3-9 or 2-10, + 35 degree offset redot is going to be much more useful and probably the same or less weight. That 8x zoom ratio drives a ton of weight.

But what do I know.
 
Humble opinion, if you need that much magnification, a 3-9 or 2-10, + 35 degree offset redot is going to be much more useful and probably the same or less weight. That 8x zoom ratio drives a ton of weight.

But what do I know.
The military (especially the Marine Corps) doesn't have enough money to invest in 2 separate optics. Although some guys get issued the new HK M27 which has the acog and rmr but you don't see very many of them out there.
 
Perhaps it is a more forward thinking move under the assumption that the United States may some day have to encounter a more well-trained and organized fighting force.
 
Humble opinion, if you need that much magnification, a 3-9 or 2-10, + 35 degree offset redot is going to be much more useful and probably the same or less weight. That 8x zoom ratio drives a ton of weight.

But what do I know.

The offset sight is a nice thought. I like having offset irons. You can line up the irons on a target in the distance, rolls the rifle back to the magnified optic and be close to, if not, already on the target.
 
My kid laughs at me. He takes his scope out and red dot and I nail his crap equal with Iron Sites. What you grow up on SON, what you grow up on ;)

Isn't that to some degree the problem the military increasingly faces. Many recruits are not showing up already proficient marksmen, some are shooting guns for the first time in training, then technology is used to try and bridge what is ultimately a skills gap.

The scope and the red dot are demonstrably easier for new shooters to get proficient with, but the underlying marksmenship skills are still not what they could be.
 
Isn't that to some degree the problem the military increasingly faces. Many recruits are not showing up already proficient marksmen, some are shooting guns for the first time in training, then technology is used to try and bridge what is ultimately a skills gap.

The scope and the red dot are demonstrably easier for new shooters to get proficient with, but the underlying marksmenship skills are still not what they could be.
In all honesty the recruits who show up never having shot a rifle normally do better. They don't have bad habits or techniques that have to be corrected. Not saying that it's 100% that way but the PMIs like the kids that haven't shot. They are easy to teach and listen better. The scope just keeps all recruits from learning the basics of iron sights. I didn't know anything other than Kentucky windage when I first joined. I also had some bad habits that were very hard for me to kick. Haha. I thought I knew it all. I was informed very quickly that wasn't the case.
 
In all honesty the recruits who show up never having shot a rifle normally do better. They don't have bad habits or techniques that have to be corrected. Not saying that it's 100% that way but the PMIs like the kids that haven't shot. They are easy to teach and listen better. The scope just keeps all recruits from learning the basics of iron sights. I didn't know anything other than Kentucky windage when I first joined. I also had some bad habits that were very hard for me to kick. Haha. I thought I knew it all. I was informed very quickly that wasn't the case.
I was in the infantry and also one of the marksmanship coaches in our battalion and this is absolutely true. A good portion of the time, the ones who have very little training are almost always more receptive to input from an instructor. And a lot of times would shoot well above the minimum score for expert.
 
I qualified with iron sights at 500 meters. I didn't use much of the acog until the end of my enlistment. I liked that optic though. It being small and all. The thing I see happening are short cuts. As technology increases the basic are no longer taught. Ask any recruit now how to run irons and they won't be able to answer. The standards are going down and the gear is going up. Personally I would rather go as light as possibly while maintaining the safety and preparedness. Magnification is nice for identifying threats, easier shots, etc. but I wouldn't want to be humping that all day. More stuff, more problems. Gear doesn't substitute the basics.
We were still qualifying on iron sights as of March of last year. in my 12 years I never met a private who had an optic on their weapon in basic training. Maybe it's changing now. Maybe it should though. The majority of critical military personnel don't ever need to fire a weapon outside the range.

Honestly, the military's adherence to physical training and combat skills is keeping a lot of the people with the "new" most important skills from ever joining. I get that everyone is a soldier first, but I'm not sure that's going to work when our all-volunteer army needs many times more computer nerds, bookworms, spreadsheet makers, and video game players than it does infantrymen. Gonna be interesting seeing if/how we adapt. It's hard to find enough talented programmers and data analysts who want to run 2 miles in 12 minutes.
 
In all honesty the recruits who show up never having shot a rifle normally do better. They don't have bad habits or techniques that have to be corrected. Not saying that it's 100% that way but the PMIs like the kids that haven't shot. They are easy to teach and listen better. The scope just keeps all recruits from learning the basics of iron sights. I didn't know anything other than Kentucky windage when I first joined. I also had some bad habits that were very hard for me to kick. Haha. I thought I knew it all. I was informed very quickly that wasn't the case.
PMI here. I definitely like the kids who have never shot, but I prefer the kids who already know exactly what works for them. Any PMI worth his salt doesn't care how the soldier holds their hands or pulls the trigger if they're hitting targets. Some of the best shots I saw had some super funky form, and I didn't try to train it out of them.

Now that said, the kids with terrible habits who also can't hit anything, well those were range headaches.
 
We were still qualifying on iron sights as of March of last year. in my 12 years I never met a private who had an optic on their weapon in basic training. Maybe it's changing now. Maybe it should though. The majority of critical military personnel don't ever need to fire a weapon outside the range.

Honestly, the military's adherence to physical training and combat skills is keeping a lot of the people with the "new" most important skills from ever joining. I get that everyone is a soldier first, but I'm not sure that's going to work when our all-volunteer army needs many times more computer nerds, bookworms, spreadsheet makers, and video game players than it does infantrymen. Gonna be interesting seeing if/how we adapt. It's hard to find enough talented programmers and data analysts who want to run 2 miles in 12 minutes.
By your lingo I'm guessing you're army. The Marine Corps implemented ACOGs in the early 2012s in boot camp. I'm sure each branch is different. Just like how the Marine Corps runs 3 miles while the Army runs 2. I hope the Marine Corps never backs down from their physical standards or their marksmanship standards. If you can't hack it you don't belong in my opinion. What the Marine Corps should do is pull their head out of their A$$ and back down the tattoo policy that disqualifies so many from joining. I don't remember the percentage but I know it is very low for people 18-25 who are eligible and can pass the requirements to join (tattoos, background, medical, overweight). The children/young adults of this generation do not have the drive or the leadership (parenting) to want to be in the military. I do understand your statement on wanting the "tech/nerdy" individuals in the military because sooner than later wars aren't going to be fought on the ground but instead via cyber/tech. But we still must maintain a strong ground force as they will always have a place and be needed.
 
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PMI here. I definitely like the kids who have never shot, but I prefer the kids who already know exactly what works for them. Any PMI worth his salt doesn't care how the soldier holds their hands or pulls the trigger if they're hitting targets. Some of the best shots I saw had some super funky form, and I didn't try to train it out of them.

Now that said, the kids with terrible habits who also can't hit anything, well those were range headaches.
As a civilian instructor I'm constantly telling people that we're all different and the stance and grip that I'm showing them is a starting place. If it just doesn't work for you after you've given it an honest try, let's find something that does. When I ask are you comfortable and I get a "No!" I know to take a closer look.

Also look at all the different swings you see on professional golfers. If someone had told Bubba Watson they had to rebuild his entire swing, they'd have ruined his career.
 
As a civilian instructor I'm constantly telling people that we're all different and the stance and grip that I'm showing them is a starting place. If it just doesn't work for you after you've given it an honest try, let's find something that does. When I ask are you comfortable and I get a "No!" I know to take a closer look.

Also look at all the different swings you see on professional golfers. If someone had told Bubba Watson they had to rebuild his entire swing, they'd have ruined his career.
I agree 100% Unfortunately the Marine Corps has rules and regulations on positions while shooting (MCO 3574 I believe). Whether it's standing, kneeling, sitting, or prone it has to be done in a specific way. Everyone is expected to shoot the exact same and conform to the cookie cutter mold. Now there is some wiggle room as long as certain standards are met but not much. Or you just have to wait until the coaches turn their back and hope you don't get caught by the block. :D You gotta get creative. Haha
 
4x ACOGs have been in use for what, 30+ years now? The Elcan 1/4x has been around for at least a decade. It is not magnification, but LPVOs and the VCOG specifically that I would question since they appeal to military's tendency to start from multiple mission optimized tools and then later decide they want one thing that does all the things even if it does none of them well.

not "our" mil. per se but other countries of origin have had them for decades too. psop's and such. pretty damn good optics for their age and the reticle was pretty advanced as well for how old it is now.
Ask any recruit now how to run irons and they won't be able to answer. The standards are going down and the gear is going up
this seems to be a common problem with out politicians and news outlets as well.
its getting friggin ridiculous.
on a side note i heard they aren't even teaching electrical theory in colleges anymore. its all going to coding and robotics type teaching. people and their minds are getting lazy AF!
 
I agree 100% Unfortunately the Marine Corps has rules and regulations on positions while shooting (MCO 3574 I believe). Whether it's standing, kneeling, sitting, or prone it has to be done in a specific way. Everyone is expected to shoot the exact same and conform to the cookie cutter mold. Now there is some wiggle room as long as certain standards are met but not much. Or you just have to wait until the coaches turn their back and hope you don't get caught by the block. :D You gotta get creative. Haha
When I was shooting 4 position small bore, we had a Marine on the team that was TRYING to teach his girlfriend. After an emotional session I told her to "Just modify the position to suit yourself. You can't shoot well if you are not comfortable." He went all "Basic" on her and told her she HAD to be in this position blah blah blah.
The last I knew he had an EX-girlfriend, and he is still a mediocre marksman.
 
When I was shooting 4 position small bore, we had a Marine on the team that was TRYING to teach his girlfriend. After an emotional session I told her to "Just modify the position to suit yourself. You can't shoot well if you are not comfortable." He went all "Basic" on her and told her she HAD to be in this position blah blah blah.
The last I knew he had an EX-girlfriend, and he is still a mediocre marksman.
Lol. Yup. Everyone is different. Different strokes for different folks. But when your in the military everyone gets beat the same.
 
When I was shooting 4 position small bore, we had a Marine on the team that was TRYING to teach his girlfriend. After an emotional session I told her to "Just modify the position to suit yourself. You can't shoot well if you are not comfortable." He went all "Basic" on her and told her she HAD to be in this position blah blah blah.
The last I knew he had an EX-girlfriend, and he is still a mediocre marksman.
Everyone knows you change positions if the girl doesn't like it. Sheesh.
 

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