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LPVO has been used by Spec Ops for quite awhile. Weight is not a factor like most people say. Reason why I say that is look at all the people that carry a SAW. I carried the M60e3 in the 90's and was no factor
The guys who get stuck carrying the 240 got some serious stones. They also get to have the most fun. I feel for the guys who pack the mortar base plates/tubes. That $hit is heavy. Haha.
 
LPVO has been used by Spec Ops for quite awhile. Weight is not a factor like most people say. Reason why I say that is look at all the people that carry a SAW. I carried the M60e3 in the 90's and was no factor
LPVO have their place for sure and have been used for a while by the special forces guys. Look at the one they just picked, Nightforce ATACR 1-8....that weighs 21 ounces. They sure as hell didn't pick this thing.

I never toted around a M60, but I carried the SAW more than I cared to. If you never cussed that heavy pig for it's weight, you're a better man than me. :s0112:
 
LPVO have their place for sure and have been used for a while by the special forces guys. Look at the one they just picked, Nightforce ATACR 1-8....that weighs 21 ounces. They sure as hell didn't pick this thing.

I never toted around a M60, but I carried the SAW more than I cared to. If you never cussed that heavy pig for it's weight, you're a better man than me. :s0112:
I figured if things went bad I would rather deal with the weight but we also didn't have all the extra BS that they carry now! They carry 152lbs and we carried 74lb not including weapon. So 15 more if you had A2 and 30 or so with the M60.
 
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Not so much magnification being an issue as ROE and ISAF shackling us from unleashing our full power to stop threats that were known and easily exploiting striking us.
Gotta win hearts and minds vs the battle/war
Oh and bad intel...

Can't return fire unless you 100% know and are certain that guy who fired and then ran (squirters) into that house is still armed and even if they are firing from windows you are not allowed to shell the building without confirming it's hostile and it a school even though they would 1000% exploit this as if they knew how we operated.

Imagine going into a boxing ring or MMA fight with one hand tied behind your back and having to ask the ref if it's ok to fight back after getting hit.

Politics in war basically. Yeah - that's the kind of BS I always loathed hearing about.
 
The max effective range for a M16 on a point target is 550 meters. Would the extra magnification be nice? Sure, but to put it on a weapon that doesn't reach out that far seems kind of dumb. Especially when it weighs 3 times as much as a 4x ACOG.

Doesn't that max range assume the target it standing tall though and the bullet is able to hit the entire thoracic cavity, not hiding behind cover with minimum square inches of their body visible while firing?

I'm thinking that at 550 yards what the bullet can do, and what I can see in order to make make the bullet do it, would be two different things.
 
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Politics in war basically. Yeah - that's the kind of BS I always loathed hearing about.

Yeah I hope the new gear helps our boys and they aren't as hindered as we were while I was in.

I actually don't know if the same rules and ISAF are followed or if things changed all we know is it slowed us down and felt counter intuitive to all the training we got prior to deployment. But that's conventional level for ya.
 
These wouldn't be used for close quarters stuff too, would they? I mean I can hit stuff down to point-shooting distance with my ACOG but inside 10 yards or so I'm noticeably faster with iron sights, an Aimpoint or an EOTech. I say this from the perspective of a civilian shooting at a range, so take that with a grain of salt.
 
These wouldn't be used for close quarters stuff too, would they? I mean I can hit stuff down to point-shooting distance with my ACOG but inside 10 yards or so I'm noticeably faster with iron sights, an Aimpoint or an EOTech. I say this from the perspective of a civilian shooting at a range, so take that with a grain of salt.
No issues in cqb. Muscle memory and they use rifles that are under 14.5" barrel. Only time they would need the optic is in Hostage rescue
 
Doesn't that max range assume the target it standing tall though and the bullet is able to hit the entire thoracic cavity, not hiding behind cover with minimum square inches of their body visible while firing?

I'm thinking that at 600 yards what the bullet can do, and what I can see in order to make make the bullet do it, would be two different things.
Marines qualify with their rifle at 500 yards. Even before we got ACOG's, we shot from the 500 yard line with iron sights. This was at an echo target - human torso outline from the head to the waist, roughly 19"x39".

To me, the extra 31 ounces this LPVO adds isn't worth it, over the 10 ounce ACOG, for only 4x more zoom.

Add in the fact that the ammunition the Marines are shooting isn't match ammo. And they're putting these LPVO's on rifles that have had many thousands of rounds down the barrel.

If a bad guy is at a range of 600 yards, behind cover, there are other tools available to the infantry guys that would probably work better...M249 SAW or M240.

There's an argument for target identification with a higher magnification LPVO. These are going on infantry Marines' rifles. If there's someone out there shooting at them, there's a pretty good chance it's a bad guy. ;)
 
These wouldn't be used for close quarters stuff too, would they? I mean I can hit stuff down to point-shooting distance with my ACOG but inside 10 yards or so I'm noticeably faster with iron sights, an Aimpoint or an EOTech. I say this from the perspective of a civilian shooting at a range, so take that with a grain of salt.

The article didn't specify, although if the LPVO has a true 1x, with a lot of training, you can get up drill first shot speed to that of a red dot. The biggest issue in comparison is the eye box compared to unlimited eye relief. If the shooter can maintain the eyebox, the difference is inconsequential. (Speaking from a civilian and competition perspective)
 
Marines qualify with their rifle at 500 yards. Even before we got ACOG's, we shot from the 500 yard line with iron sights. This was at an echo target - human torso outline from the head to the waist, roughly 19"x39".

To me, the extra 31 ounces this LPVO adds isn't worth it, over the 10 ounce ACOG, for only 4x more zoom.
My thinking is about the same. Honestly if they train with both eyes open and left the cover on the front of the ACOG... they can still use the 4x and not have to worry about the transition from 1-6 or whatever. Unless they are planning on getting the optics now for a new squad rifle?! Lol oh yeah that would make sense to get them both at the same time!
 
Marines qualify with their rifle at 500 yards. Even before we got ACOG's, we shot from the 500 yard line with iron sights. This was at an echo target - human torso outline from the head to the waist, roughly 19"x39".

To me, the extra 31 ounces this LPVO adds isn't worth it, over the 10 ounce ACOG, for only 4x more zoom.

Add in the fact that the ammunition the Marines are shooting isn't match ammo. And they're putting these LPVO's on rifles that have had many thousands of rounds down the barrel.

If a bad guy is at a range of 600 yards, behind cover, there are other tools available to the infantry guys that would probably work better...M249 SAW or M240.

There's an argument for target identification with a higher magnification LPVO. These are going on infantry Marines' rifles. If there's someone out there shooting at them, there's a pretty good chance it's a bad guy. ;)
when I was in 29 palms one of the Gunnys in charge of the range was telling me the rifles we got issued were only guaranteed 2 moa at 100 yards.... lol. Not sure if it was true but the m16s and m9s I saw were ran super hard and put away wet. The weapons I handled in the Marines were beat but we made them work.
 
when I was in 29 palms one of the Gunnys in charge of the range was telling me the rifles we got issued were only guaranteed 2 moa at 100 yards.... lol. Not sure if it was true but the m16s and m9s I saw were ran super hard and put away wet. The weapons I handled in the Marines were beat but we made them work.
Is M193 even rated at 2 MOA? Or are they shooting something different now?
 
Is M193 even rated at 2 MOA? Or are they shooting something different now?
I wanna say it was m855 green tip but I may be wrong. He may have been talking ammo or the rifle system. Possibly a combination of the two. I wasn't paying much attention to him.
 
Most likely the rifle. Chrome lined barrels aren't the most accurate to begin with as it is much harder to cut good rifling in a hardened chrome lined barrel, but they're necessary to handle the excessive heat of full auto and burst fire on a select fire rifle. They also are not given the luxury of firing a mag, then switching rifles to let the rifle cool down.

Stainless barrels are far more accurate and can bring 193 and 855 down to sub MOA, but if you run them too hot or run a few mags of full auto, they'll quickly lose their accuracy and prematurely wear out the rifling. So some accuracy is sacrificed for durability sake when you need to lay down suppressive fire with the giggle switch.
 
The VCOG is such a missed opportunity. Why not beef up your accupoint line and add a battery power for lowlight conditions. Then you can maintain the bright and non battery usage of fiber optic lighting and still have a back up for night time/in door operation. But nooo they made made it battery powered only and its not even daylight f'ng bright. Like wtf trijicon
 
The VCOG is such a missed opportunity. Why not beef up your accupoint line and add a battery power for lowlight conditions. Then you can maintain the bright and non battery usage of fiber optic lighting and still have a back up for night time/in door operation. But nooo they made made it battery powered only and its not even daylight f'ng bright. Like wtf trijicon

Accupoints are great. The revision of that line would have been cool. A 1x10 accupoint in FFP with an ACSS recticle. That would be a sight to hold.
 

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