The lowly .380

po18guy

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when i worked at the indoor range i saw a woman take a .25acp n.d. through the foot from her brother in the next lane. the slug slipped between the bones and stopped flush in the sole of her sandal. she remained calm and no one laughed till the ambulance was gone.
There was an episode of Sledge Hammer! in which his gun was stolen. He went to the armorer and was issued a .25 auto. At the range, there were zero hits on the target. Another officer walked halfway, looked down and said "The bullets never even reached the target!"
 
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the .25 auto range scenes were filmed at my range. the pistol modified for blank firing that they brought with them could not function for more than one shot at a time. we let them borrow a raven and a box of ammo. the scene looking at hammer shooting from the muzzle end was done with live ammo and the camera mounted on a tripod. the camera operator did not appreciate the risk to his equipment and got behind the firing line before shooting commenced. i was kind of bummed that dory was not as good looking in person as she was on camera. the company rented the entire range for days to film a couple of minutes of range time.
i went to work an hour early every day for practice time with my 45 auto before i opened the shop. most fun job i ever had. the whittier earthquake damaged the building and several others on the block so the whole block was redeveloped.


"trust me, i know what i'm doing"
 

Certaindeaf

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the .25 auto range scenes were filmed at my range. the pistol modified for blank firing that they brought with them could not function for more than one shot at a time. we let them borrow a raven and a box of ammo. the scene looking at hammer shooting from the muzzle end was done with live ammo and the camera mounted on a tripod. the camera operator did not appreciate the risk to his equipment and got behind the firing line before shooting commenced. i was kind of bummed that dory was not as good looking in person as she was on camera. the company rented the entire range for days to film a couple of minutes of range time.
i went to work an hour early every day for practice time with my 45 auto before i opened the shop. most fun job i ever had. the whittier earthquake damaged the building and several others on the block so the whole block was redeveloped.


"trust me, i know what i'm doing"
Wow, that's pretty cool!
 

po18guy

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that sledge hammer avatar made me go offtopic
"Don't confuse me!!!" Having the DVD collection is like the world's greatest collection of insults, wry observations, comebacks and quotable quotes.

In the Sledge Rattle and Roll episode with the heavy metal rock group The Plague, Doreau made a comment about the groups music. Sledge glanced at her, patted his holstered 629, and told her, "Hey, this is the heavy metal that made America great!"

My only connection is eating at a locally famous Honolulu mom & pop which David Rasche also dined at - his autographed photo on the wall.
 
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There is an interesting data mining study regarding stopping ill-intended people with firearms. Pretty interesting: An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association


The little gun you have is always better than the big one you wish you had today.
I was hoping someone would post that.

I think this chart is interesting:
Ellifritz_OneShot_Percent.png
If we think about these cartridges in terms of kick -- this would move the .357 to the right of .45ACP in my opinion, it seems that at a certain high kick high power range, the one shot stop percentage gets better, probably due to the fact that getting hit with something of high power anywhere is going to do a ton of damage. The one shot stop sort of bottoms out at 9mm which doesn't have a ton of kick, but doesn't have the kind of actual power a shotgun has either. Then the one shot stop percentage starts rising again in .380 and .32 -- I would guess this is because it easier to be accurate with a gun that doesn't kick so much, then falls off again when you get into the actual rat killing calibers.

Anyway, I'm 100% comfortable carrying a .380 based on the stats.
 
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I was hoping someone would post that.

I think this chart is interesting:
View attachment 723065
If we think about these cartridges in terms of kick -- this would move the .357 to the right of .45ACP in my opinion, it seems that at a certain high kick high power range, the one shot stop percentage gets better, probably due to the fact that getting hit with something of high power anywhere is going to do a ton of damage. The one shot stop sort of bottoms out at 9mm which doesn't have a ton of kick, but doesn't have the kind of actual power a shotgun has either. Then the one shot stop percentage starts rising again in .380 and .32 -- I would guess this is because it easier to be accurate with a gun that doesn't kick so much, then falls off again when you get into the actual rat killing calibers.

Anyway, I'm 100% comfortable carrying a .380 based on the stats.
The flip side is the "people who were not incapacitated", which does vary wildly with caliber. However for calibers 380 and up it's not a huge difference, around 1 in 8 or so, but for 22, 25, and 32 you start seeing odds around 1 in 3 of the person not being incapacitated at all.
 
I was hoping someone would post that.

I think this chart is interesting:
View attachment 723065
If we think about these cartridges in terms of kick -- this would move the .357 to the right of .45ACP in my opinion, it seems that at a certain high kick high power range, the one shot stop percentage gets better, probably due to the fact that getting hit with something of high power anywhere is going to do a ton of damage. The one shot stop sort of bottoms out at 9mm which doesn't have a ton of kick, but doesn't have the kind of actual power a shotgun has either. Then the one shot stop percentage starts rising again in .380 and .32 -- I would guess this is because it easier to be accurate with a gun that doesn't kick so much, then falls off again when you get into the actual rat killing calibers.

Anyway, I'm 100% comfortable carrying a .380 based on the stats.
And here I’ve been carrying the wrong caliber all along, need a .32 APC, that’ll get the job done.

I suspect another factor in the higher numbers for .32 & .380 might be attributable to the fact they are typically close in, last ditch defensive arms. And of course modern bullet technology.

At any rate, I wouldn’t want to be the backstop for any of them :D
 

Pete F

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I was hoping someone would post that.

I think this chart is interesting:
View attachment 723065
If we think about these cartridges in terms of kick -- this would move the .357 to the right of .45ACP in my opinion, it seems that at a certain high kick high power range, the one shot stop percentage gets better, probably due to the fact that getting hit with something of high power anywhere is going to do a ton of damage. The one shot stop sort of bottoms out at 9mm which doesn't have a ton of kick, but doesn't have the kind of actual power a shotgun has either. Then the one shot stop percentage starts rising again in .380 and .32 -- I would guess this is because it easier to be accurate with a gun that doesn't kick so much, then falls off again when you get into the actual rat killing calibers.

Anyway, I'm 100% comfortable carrying a .380 based on the stats.
I did notice that they included .32 ACP and Long, but left out .32 H&R Magnum. It is probably due to lack of data points, but it is one that I carry often running around town, St Helens, OR, not PDX or Metro.

I would be interested in the stats for the .32 H&R Magnum.
 
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As " leadcounsel " has pointed out there is something very wrong with the previously presented chart. It appears that someone may have used limited or other data. It would be interesting to know who compiled this chart and what source(s) were used in its conclusions.
 
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From the aforementioned: An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association

Over a 10-year period, I kept track of stopping power results from every shooting I could find. I talked to the participants of gunfights, read police reports, attended autopsies, and scoured the newspapers, magazines, and Internet for any reliable accounts of what happened to the human body when it was shot.

I documented all of the data I could; tracking caliber, type of bullet (if known), where the bullet hit and whether or not the person was incapacitated. I also tracked fatalities, noting which bullets were more likely to kill and which were not. It was an exhaustive project, but I'm glad I did it and I'm happy to report the results of my study here.
As for .44 v. .380, I would guess what we see in the data is that lower kick and higher accuracy are correlated. In any event, data beats thought experiments, at least in my mind.
 

Certaindeaf

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The flip side is the "people who were not incapacitated", which does vary wildly with caliber. However for calibers 380 and up it's not a huge difference, around 1 in 8 or so, but for 22, 25, and 32 you start seeing odds around 1 in 3 of the person not being incapacitated at all.
I think that study shows that you're more likely to shoot someone in the head if you have a dubious caliber.
 
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Those using .44s tend to be far more competent and confident experienced shooters than those using .380 mouse guns, and revolvers are typically longer barrels (4-6") and inherently more accurate than the short barreled (1-3") .380 guns. So confidence, ability, and platform give a generic nod to any .44 magnum for accuracy ...
That's a good theory, however the actual results from a cross section of shooters, as measured in the previously mentioned study, don't really bear this out. For instance the incidence of head and torso hits for 32 ACP, 45 ACP, and 44 Rem Mag were measured at 78%, 81%, and 88% respectively. That's likely well into the noise threshold for the data.

I still like my 357 Sig ;)
 

raftman

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I've repeatedly seen that alleged .380 chart and reports and simply don't buy it.

If we're to believe that chart of % of 1 shot stops to the HEAD or TORSO, the .380 has a higher rating than .44 magnum! Oh, really? Exhibit A, that this is a hoax. The .44 is used to hunt large game. How about the 9x19 and .40, which are military and police calibers. The .380 also "out-performs" these... I doubt it.

It's entirely counter to logic and reason and real world evidence. I think it's either a hoax or I suspect that is based on very creative math or use of statistics. Manipulated figures maybe to spur sales of .380 pistols or ammo - certainly not far fetched.

What is far-fetched is to think a .380 to the head is more lethal than a .44 magnum.

Let's look at the .32 ACP. It's almost as good, apparently, as a RIFLE or a SHOTGUN for 1 shot stops to the head. :rolleyes:

As they say, don't believe everything you read on the internet. Or in other words, there's lies, damn lies, and statistics.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say the author is being deliberately deceptive. He concedes that some of it doesn’t make sense and attributes it to much smaller sample sizes for some calibers vs others. For example, in his 10 years worth of data, he could only find 24 cases of people being shot with a .44 magnum. It’s too small a sample size to truly be statistically representative. It would be like polling 24 people to predict who will win the election. 99B2AB60-5D40-4C16-849B-32553ACC039E.jpeg
 
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Wound ballistics gelatin tests (from the now defunct IWBA run by Dr. Martin Fackler formerly the US Army's would ballistics expert) demonstrate that 32 acp and 380 acp full metal jacket penetrate 16-18 inches pretty much in a straight line. Small openings but if on target with either a heart/aorta hit or a central nervous system hit (harder than it looks, the skull is tough and so are teeth) these calibers could cause someone to cease to function aggressively. So placement is key.

The information provided above from the Buckeye Firearms Association was very interesting and doesn't seem to be at odds with Fackler's research. In the 80s the general statistic was that handgun wound in the torso was about 80% survivable (depending on exact location and the availability of advanced medical care) and that torso hits with high powered rifles (this doesn't include 5.56 and 7.62 x 39 as those are "intermediate power" rounds) were about 10% survivable. I think since then handgun rounds have improved a great deal as has medical care since the development of such things as hemostatic wound dressings.

The info presented above by Awshoot (thanks for the info) discusses the issue of the type of gun from which the 32 acp/380 acp is fired. I think that a really short barrel of a keltec p32 won't be as accurate nor will it be moving as fast as from the barrel of a walther pp (approx. 3.75".) Ballistics by the inch shows 939 fps from a 4" barrel, 782 fps from a 2" barrel and 774 fps from an actual Beretta Tomcat for the 71 grain fmj round.
 

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