The long C&R Thread (formerly "A quick C&R question")

[Modeler]

Thanks everyone for the info. Hopefully mine will come in the mail next week

 

[Lincoln4]

I just renewed mine. I was pleasantly surprised. It only took about three weeks from me sending my paperwork and check.

 

[bolus]

Modification question.

Southern Ohio gun has CZ 82 pistols that are C&R eligible. They have discounted ones with cracked grips that are $30 off.

I was considering getting one of those and then getting some replacement grips like offered here (which look quite nice btw)
http://www.marschalgrips.com/cz82/cz82.html



Looking over the ATF faq though it sounds like if I replace the original grips with these wood grips it might not be ok. any thoughts?


Q: What modifications can be made on C&R firearms without changing their C&R classification?
The definition for curio or relic ("C & R") firearms found in 27 CFR § 478.11 does not specifically state that a firearm must be in its original condition to be classified as a C&R firearm. However, ATF Ruling 85-10, which discusses the importation of military C&R firearms, notes that they must be in original configuration and adds that a receiver is not a C&R item. Combining this ruling and the definition of C&R firearms, the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) has concluded that a firearm must be in its original condition to be considered a C&R weapon.

It is also the opinion of FTB, however, that a minor change such as the addition of scope mounts, non-original sights, or sling swivels would not remove a firearm from its original condition. Moreover, we have determined that replacing particular firearms parts with new parts that are made to the original design would also be acceptable-for example, replacing a cracked M1 Grand stock with a new wooden stock of the same design, but replacing the original firearm stock with a plastic stock would change its classification as a C&R item.

 

[etrain16]

Interesting question, I'll be curious to hear the responses. As I read those paragraphs, it would seem to me that you could add the grips with no worry - as long as you don't plan to transfer it again as a C&R gun. If you did plan to transfer it, you could always put the stock grips back on. Just my opinion, I'm sure the folks that know more about this have some better information.

 

[etrain16]

Oh, and thanks for posting that link by the way - now I want a CZ82 as well. I don't have enough money to keep this growing list manageable

 

[Modeler]

As I read those paragraphs, it would seem to me that you could add the grips with no worry - as long as you don't plan to transfer it again as a C&R gun.

That's my interpretation too. Also, any gun over 50 years old, regardless of configuration (original or modified) is C&R.

 

[bolus]

ah I see. It may effect the classification, but probably not prohibited from doing after it is purchased.

 

[OcelotZ3]

"Also, any gun over 50 years old, regardless of configuration (original or modified) is C&R."

Uh, the paragraph from the ATF in the previous email directly contradicts what you just said.

"Combining this ruling and the definition of C&R firearms, the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) has concluded that a firearm must be in its original condition to be considered a C&R weapon."

 

[bolus]

Oh, and thanks for posting that link by the way - now I want a CZ82 as well. I don't have enough money to keep this growing list manageable

Yeah, there are a bunch of grips on there for C&R pistols.

 

[Modeler]

"Also, any gun over 50 years old, regardless of configuration (original or modified) is C&R."

Uh, the paragraph from the ATF in the previous email directly contradicts what you just said.

"Combining this ruling and the definition of C&R firearms, the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) has concluded that a firearm must be in its original condition to be considered a C&R weapon."

Here is the definition of a C&R Firearm from the ATF's FAQ page:

Q: What is a firearm curio or relic?
Firearm curios or relics include firearms which have special value to collectors because they possess some qualities not ordinarily associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1. Have been manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof; or
2. Be certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; or
3. Derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or from the fact of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

All it takes for a firearm to be C&R is to be at least 50 years old. That's it, that's all that's required. Half a Century old

 

[OcelotZ3]

Wow, you totally ignored the text which came the FTB and I quoted in my response.

Go to your own ATF FAQ link you just posted. Look at FAQ question #1 at the top.

Sheesh.

 

[Modeler]

Wow, you totally ignored the text which came the FTB and I quoted in my response.

Go to your own ATF FAQ link you just posted. Look at FAQ question #1 at the top.

Sheesh.

I understand what you're saying, and for a firearm that is less than 50 years old that is correct. If it's a crude Vietnam bring-back gun that was made by some villager in 1970 and you modify it from it's original state then it's no longer C&R; that's obvious. Or if the CZ-82 in question is less than 50 years old (which it is) then that applies as well.

However, question #2 makes it quite clear that any gun more than 50 years old qualifies as C&R.

I don't know how it could be any more clear.

 

[coop44]

had my C&R for about 5 years now, just had a couple of t53's sent to my door, it never gets old. BTW cabela's in oly are a bunch of idiots who have no clue about C&R's. My biggest benefit with a C&R is not guns but parts, you get dealer pricing from midway and brownells.

 

[telero]

you get dealer pricing from midway and brownells.

Midway doesn't have dealer pricing any more.

 

[OcelotZ3]

"However, question #2 makes it quite clear that any gun more than 50 years old qualifies as C&R."

Except question 1 pre-empts it. The answer to #2 is actually referenced in answer #1. It couldn't be more clear.

Here's what I recommend. Take a WWII gun, sporterize it by cutting the barrel down a bit (still legal length), replace the stock with a modern tactical plastic one, show a photo to the ATF and ask if it is still C&R. It won't be. And you saying that anything over 50 years old is automatically C&R is propagating incorrect information about the law and someone might just take your word for it and do something illegal because of it.

Also, machine guns, SBR's and integrally suppressed weapons over 50 years old are also C&R... But you still need to follow the additional ATF rules.

The law is clear, the FAQs are clear, and I'll shut up now.

 

[Ligito]

Just got mine yesterday. Only took 2 weeks after I sent in the application.

I assume you dont sign the original, make a bunch of copies and then sign those copies when making purchases, right?

Sign only copies of the original.
Scan the original and keep it on your computer.
Print a copy and sign it, as needed.
You'll need it when you purchase.
You can email a .jpg, or .pdf file to a distributor.

 

[Ligito]

"However, question #2 makes it quite clear that any gun more than 50 years old qualifies as C&R."

Except question 1 pre-empts it. The answer to #2 is actually referenced in answer #1. It couldn't be more clear.

Here's what I recommend. Take a WWII gun, sporterize it by cutting the barrel down a bit (still legal length), replace the stock with a modern tactical plastic one, show a photo to the ATF and ask if it is still C&R. It won't be. And you saying that anything over 50 years old is automatically C&R is propagating incorrect information about the law and someone might just take your word for it and do something illegal because of it.

Also, machine guns, SBR's and integrally suppressed weapons over 50 years old are also C&R... But you still need to follow the additional ATF rules.

The law is clear, the FAQs are clear, and I'll shut up now.

The law is clear for purchasing.
They are discussing modifications after purchasing.
Since it won't be sold (C&R) it can be modified by the owner, after purchase.

 

[Jim Colvill]

If you want to sell the CZ as a C&W later, I would suggest keep hold of the original grips but feel free to install new grips.

 

[bolus]

Looks like my first C&R gun will be a pre-63 FN Hi Power. Aim Surplus put some up to day and the C&R eligible ones sold out within an hour or so



The guys in Hungary make some wood grips for these as well.

 

[Modeler]

Looks like my first C&R gun will be a pre-63 FN Hi Power. Aim Surplus put some up to day and the C&R eligible ones sold out within an hour or so

View attachment 95277

The guys in Hungary make some wood grips for these as well.

Nice! Still waiting for my C&R...