The Dollar is about to get SPANKED

[bugeye]

I love how we Americans are now so "numb" to our county's plight, and refer to STAGGERING amounts of money with more zeros behind it than God ever intended money to have in the first place as "not that much, compared to"....

OK, well here is more perspective for you, the total dollar value of derivatives trading world wide is 1000 trillion dollars, and that is about 18 times the value of all the goods and services produced in the world in a year. Now, not a penny is set aside to back these securities, no one discloses who is holding them, most of them are credit default swaps that are like insurance. When the investment bank Lehman Brothers fell, AIG was holding billions of dollars worth of CDS and was required to pay out when they had nothing set aside for it, so the gov had to bail them out. Wall street makes money on these useless securites. Warren Buffet called them "Instruments of financial mass destruction". They are a doomsday machine as the fall of one entity will domino all others leaving us all at financial ground zero. So far, nothing has been done to regulate these devices, and the well paid weasels buy and sell them knowing they aren't worth the paper they are printed on, but each party declares them as assets and they then go to their bosses and ask for a huge bonus based on how much money they made their companies.

If any of you 'free market' types want to see the reality of your idealized paradise look no further than the unregulated derivatives trade, and consider that it is a nearly perfect system for the 8th layer of Hades.

 

[willseeker]

Hmmm... are you saying that perhaps our own government is responsible for this...and we are now defacto involved?

Yes, I'm afraid you're right, we're still going to held accountable. As citizens of this country we are as they say in the movies, accomplises. But this talk of allowing whoever to take what...California, Alaska, parts of New Jersey?...
As my pappy used to say "that dog don't hunt!"

We are in this enchilada together lads! and there's no way they are going to take any part of this land, not even Salinas, Kansas!

I think that maybe a having a good long talk with our government is in order.

 

[Gunner3456]

No one can call himself wealthy if he isn't debt free, or at least has liquid assets he can sell today and pay off any debts. Even then, he has to have a ton of money left over to be "wealthy."

Does the US qualify then as "wealthy?" Of course not.

Will the US default on debt? Of course not. It would first print more money to pay the debt. That would (will) bring on massive inflation as the supply of money increases. A hyper-printing of money will flood the market with it and it will become trash blowing down the streets, not a valuable item.

When it takes a wheelbarrow full of paper money to buy a loaf of bread as it did in post WWI Germany, or in 2001 Venezuela, we will all wish we had bought silver. We will not be able to buy a single round of .22lr with a $20 bill when paper money is just paper.

Just study present day Venezuela since 2001 to find out what will be needed and what will be valuable when the govt is finished destroying the currency and the free markets.

 

[Johnny_boy]

Ah, but ... YOU didn't personally rack up this debt...

snip...

Instead, our ever corrupt "government" did those things in OUR name.

Do you still just let a creditor (like the Chinese) take what is rightfully YOURS, MINE and EVERYONE'S for a debt that the population at large is not personally responsible for?

If you hire a lawyer or agent to represents your estates or trusts and sign the "power of attorney" paper, then you will still be liable for misdeeds those people do. Well, the same thing. Our governemnt represents the people. We elected them into the office. So we are actually ALL personally responsible for it.

Of course I am upset that our governemnt is not managing well in terms of fiscal and monetary policy that makes it very easy to misuse the system, but most of the trade deficit is casued by us and how we consume goods.

Of course, we won't be giving up our lands to the foreginers, but hey they might want our natural resources (oil fields, copper mines) or they want to own all Federal buildings and make us pay rent? Who knows...

 

[Johnny_boy]

Will the US default on debt? Of course not. It would first print more money to pay the debt.

I thought that would be what we would do as well, but here is an interesting counter point:
http://www.businessinsider.com/hummel-the-us-will-default-on-its-debt-2009-8

We will just default on US treasuries and save the US dollar. interesting point.

 

[Gunner3456]

Back to Venezuela, the government is still trying in the same losing fascist way our government is trying to regulate markets. Prime example:

Venezuela used to be a major exporter of beef. It has vast and prime land for raising cattle. Much of the country's wealth came from those beef exports.

When the economy crashed and people became hungry, and when beef was too expensive for the locals due to inflation, the govt outlawed the exporting of beef. After all, the people needed to eat, right?

The problem was that the people couldn't afford to pay for that beef, so the ranchers couldn't get paid for raising the beef. The only recourse the ranchers had was to cut back on the size of their herds. They couldn't pay to feed the cattle or pay their help, or for the equipment and fuel that's involved.

Now Venezuela has almost no beef for anyone. No beef to export to bring money into the country, and no beef for the people to eat. The people still can't afford to buy what little beef is left.

The fascists (people who believe that government should control private businesses) in Venezuela still haven't learned, and the fascists in DC won't learn until it's too late either.

 

[Gunner3456]

I thought that would be what we would do as well, but here is an interesting counter point:
http://www.businessinsider.com/hummel-the-us-will-default-on-its-debt-2009-8

We will just default on US treasuries and save the US dollar. interesting point.

It is an interesting point of view, and he's a pretty savvy guy with whom I usually agree. I disagree with his conclusion here though because so many, even countries, use US treasuries as a "safe haven" way to "park money" in US Dollars. At the moment, I can't see a way to collapse treasuries without collapsing the dollar which treasuries represent.

Also, if we collapse treasuries which we use to borrow money, we won't be able to borrow any more money - sell any more treasuries. Then we are left only with the option of printing even more money to pay our bills.

Either way, I believe we wind up printing so many dollars that they become trash blowing down the street.

$.02

 

[Monkeyman]

The issue is debt as a percentage of GDP. Basic macroeconomic theory makes it clear that it's foolish to pay down national debt during a recession - in fact, that's one of the best ways to turn a recession into a depression.


Also, I just want you to remember that Ronald Reagan and both George Bushes did not pay one penny of our debt - they also ran up historic deficits. The United States has been running on deficit spending for five decades now and not only has it remained stable, it has grown into the most powerful economic and military force the world has ever seen.

As for individual quality of life going into free-fall, I find it comical that any conservative who's not a Wall Street mogul refuses to consider, even for a moment, that decades of tax cuts for the rich combined with a reduction in social services might be to blame.

You pissed in this bed, but we'll all have to sleep in it.

What a perfect regurgitation of some crappy 200 level econ class at Eugene. Bravo. You even managed to use "piss" and "mogul" in the same screed.
Macroeconomic theory, indeed. Theory.


Here's your percentage:

 

[Monkeyman]

OK, well here is more perspective for you, the total dollar value of derivatives trading world wide is 1000 trillion dollars, and that is about 18 times the value of all the goods and services produced in the world in a year. Now, not a penny is set aside to back these securities, no one discloses who is holding them, most of them are credit default swaps that are like insurance. When the investment bank Lehman Brothers fell, AIG was holding billions of dollars worth of CDS and was required to pay out when they had nothing set aside for it, so the gov had to bail them out. Wall street makes money on these useless securites. Warren Buffet called them "Instruments of financial mass destruction". They are a doomsday machine as the fall of one entity will domino all others leaving us all at financial ground zero. So far, nothing has been done to regulate these devices, and the well paid weasels buy and sell them knowing they aren't worth the paper they are printed on, but each party declares them as assets and they then go to their bosses and ask for a huge bonus based on how much money they made their companies.

If any of you 'free market' types want to see the reality of your idealized paradise look no further than the unregulated derivatives trade, and consider that it is a nearly perfect system for the 8th layer of Hades.

In a truly free market, there would have been no bailout. Don't blame capitalism, blame the politicians who try to rig it and squeeze the people who risk capital to create growth.

We haven't had a truly free market in this country since the FDR tried to "fix" the Depression. He just made it worse, like the pols are doing now.

What you know as a free market is crony capitalism rife with corruption.
That does not mean pure capitalism doesn't work.

 

[Just Jim]

Everything is a crisis when you talk to government. Healthcare, manmade global warming (big lie), houseing, the dollar, debt, banking, unemployment and so it goes on and on. All crisis is created by government to get power over us because too many people refuse to stand on their own two feet. Government wants to rule us rather than serve us and will use any crisis it takes to get that power.

The dollar crisis is just one step on the march to socialism and the loss of your freedoms. You won't recognize your life in five years if the progressives have their way. Healthcare gets passed you guys are screwed for the rest of your life. Remember I told you so.

jj

 

[ZachS]

What a perfect regurgitation of some crappy 200 level econ class at Eugene. Bravo. You even managed to use "piss" and "mogul" in the same screed.
Macroeconomic theory, indeed. Theory.


Here's your percentage:

What a perfect ad hominem attack. Have anything else for me?

 

[bugeye]

In a truly free market, there would have been no bailout. Don't blame capitalism, blame the politicians who try to rig it and squeeze the people who risk capital to create growth.

We haven't had a truly free market in this country since the FDR tried to "fix" the Depression. He just made it worse, like the pols are doing now.

What you know as a free market is crony capitalism rife with corruption.
That does not mean pure capitalism doesn't work.

Pure capitalism, like pure anything, is just the stuff of delusion. The derivatives trade in this country is as close as your going to get to an unregulated free market. The inmates are running that asylum, it is so free it buys and sells worthless things for more money than exists in the universe!

Of course, I understand this is your religion, and that you need to maintain a full head of steam by any and all means.

Capitalism, or for that matter any 'ism or 'orcracy, without corruption can only exist in the domain of pure thought, where it can be attributed to have an almost infinte amount of magical cosmic perfection.

 

[willseeker]

Pure capitalism, like pure anything, is just the stuff of delusion. The derivatives trade in this country is as close as your going to get to an unregulated free market. The inmates are running that asylum, it is so free it buys and sells worthless things for more money than exists in the universe!

Of course, I understand this is your religion, and that you need to maintain a full head of steam by any and all means.

Capitalism, or for that matter any 'ism or 'orcracy, without corruption can only exist in the domain of pure thought, where it can be attributed to have an almost infinte amount of magical cosmic perfection.

How can anyone say it more succinctly? Yeah, Bugeye!

You are unfortunately correct. When Woodrow Wilson sold this country to the "Banksters" at the Federal Reserve in 1913, it was all over 'cept for the crying.

Do not misconstrue my vehement dislike of capitalism as an attack on this country. Nothing could be further from the truth!

Yes, capitalism in it's purely theoretical form works, however; once we step into the real world, it grows enormous tumors of greed. Again, Bugeye you're right, capitalism has taken over this country and drawn the curtain of illusion regarding how much money there actually is. (and if in fact it is really backed by gold?)

Capitalism and the U.S. are two distinct entities. We should never had allowed the first to control the second!

 

[Gunner3456]

I can't believe I'm reading these things. Woodrow Wilson should have been hanged for allowing a system which meddles with capitalism and creates phony money, as our Federal Reserve does today.

Those criminals who ruined our banking system and Wall Street and who sold those derivative packages should have been hanged for fraud. The criminals who caused Freddy/Fannie to make fake loans to people who couldn't afford them should be hanged for fraud.

None of that is an indictment of capitalism. It is an indictment of greed and corruption. Even socialism has corruption and greed.

Only capitalism gives the individual the incentive to produce more, create good jobs, and create new wealth.

What have we come to?

 

[Monkeyman]

What a perfect ad hominem attack. Have anything else for me?

There wasn't one iota of fact in your little speech; what else was I to do?

Care to compare the chart I referenced with your claim that debt/GDP is at "safe" levels?

 

[Monkeyman]

Pure capitalism, like pure anything, is just the stuff of delusion. The derivatives trade in this country is as close as your going to get to an unregulated free market. The inmates are running that asylum, it is so free it buys and sells worthless things for more money than exists in the universe!

Of course, I understand this is your religion, and that you need to maintain a full head of steam by any and all means.

Capitalism, or for that matter any 'ism or 'orcracy, without corruption can only exist in the domain of pure thought, where it can be attributed to have an almost infinte amount of magical cosmic perfection.

You understand nothing about my religion. And please, detail for us exactly your experience in derivative markets? I'll gladly post my resume.

 

[trainsktg]

Laying the bulk of man's woes on 'ocracys', 'ologies', or 'isms' fails to address the basic underlying problem with any field of human endeavor...the fact that there are people involved. We are imperfect creatures and as such our creations are imperfect. Therefore we need to promote systems that limit human attempts to 'make things right' and utilize our fallabilities, paradoxically, for the good. Case in point, pure capitalism encourages people to strive to make a better product than their competitor, reduce production costs and ultimately hopefully make (alot of) money for themselves. Many individuals, acting in their own self interests (or 'greed' if you will) result in better, cheaper products for the consumer and generally a better way of life for the public as a whole.

DO NOT confuse pure capitalism with the government-coddled corporatism as it exists in America today. One only has to study the many instances in American history where big moneyed interests, pushing legislation that seemed in the public interest, actually skillfully crafted the demise of their numerous smaller competitors. The Food and Drug Act, the Meat Inspection Act of 1906 (don't believe the Upton Sinclair/Jungle BS) and the Hazardous and Solid Waste Amendments of 1984 clearly demonstrate this.

Or not...I'm just a dumb blue collar worker, not a learned academician, so what do I know?

Keith

 

[Gunner3456]

Laying the bulk of man's woes on 'ocracys', 'ologies', or 'isms' fails to address the basic underlying problem with any field of human endeavor...the fact that there are people involved. We are imperfect creatures and as such our creations are imperfect. Therefore we need to promote systems that limit human attempts to 'make things right' and utilize our fallabilities, paradoxically, for the good. Case in point, pure capitalism encourages people to strive to make a better product than their competitor, reduce production costs and ultimately hopefully make (alot of) money for themselves. Many individuals, acting in their own self interests (or 'greed' if you will) result in better, cheaper products for the consumer and generally a better way of life for the public as a whole.

DO NOT confuse pure capitalism with the government-coddled corporatism as it exists in America today. One only has to study the many instances in American history where big moneyed interests, pushing legislation that seemed in the public interest, actually skillfully crafted the demise of their numerous smaller competitors. The Food and Drug Act, the Meat Inspection Act of 1906 (don't believe the Upton Sinclair/Jungle BS) and the Hazardous and Solid Waste Amendments of 1984 clearly demonstrate this.

Or not...I'm just a dumb blue collar worker, not a learned academician, so what do I know?

Keith

You know everything you need to know. Sometimes common sense and life experience trumps an indoctrination at a university. (Which indoctrination is usually pompously doled out by some academic who never did anything but attend school and then work for the government.)

"Those who can, do. Those who can't, either teach or work for the government."

 

[pistolero57]

Our public debt (as a % of GDP) is still well within safe historical levels. Ignore the chicken littles. The US is, by far, the wealthiest, most productive, and most economically powerful country in the world. We live in complicated and interesting times, but the US dollar is still seen as a safe refuge - it will take a very mighty blow to slow this machine down.

What about as a percentage of world GDP (or GWP?) Per Wikipedia the gross WORLD product in 2000 was a little over $41 trillion. The US national debt is now a little over $12 trillion, or about 29% of GWP. (Yeah, the US gov't owes about 1/3 of the entire world's annual production.) In 1950 the GWP was a little over $4 trillion and the US national debt was a little over $257 billion, or about 6.4% of the GWP. Sure, everything's fine. There's nothing to worry about. Just because the Chinese gov't said 'The world does not have Money to buy more US Treasuries' just a couple of days ago. What me worry? Never mind that the US dollar has lost nearly 97% of its purchasing power since 1913. Never mind that our unemployment rate (the real one, not the phony that the news media report) is almost 20%. Nope. Everything's just fine. Don't pay any attention to the fact that the Federal Reserve stopped reporting M3 three years ago and is now monetizing the deficit. That sort of thing never caused any problems for Zimbabwe, Argentina, or France, right? Everything's fine. Take another Zoloft.

 

[pistolero57]

The solution that never will happen is this. First: simultaneously eliminate the Federal Reserve, arrest every high-level banker from Bernanke on down, and repudiate the US national debt in its entirety - every last dollar of it. The US government then can, and should, issue its own money (US Notes) backed by petroleum. What petroleum? Arab petroleum. Since 18 out of the 19 alleged hijackers involved in the attacks of 9-11 were from Saudi Arabia the US should immediately invade and take toital control of that country. 100% of that country's petroeum should become US government property and become the backing for our national currency. If Russia, Iran, or Pakistan takes issue with it, then we offer to launch half of our Minuteman IIIs into those countries. They'll all back down. The US would immediately once again become the strongest nation economically. It would take about a month to do this. But, it never will happen because most of our politicans are corrupt.