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The Dilima of Comercial #5

Discussion in 'Ammunition & Reloading' started by eliduc, Dec 11, 2014.

  1. eliduc

    eliduc Active Member

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    I bought 8 lbs of commercial #5 from the internet and then could not find any data for it for 38 special anywhere. One post said to use Accurate #5 data. I wasn't about to trust that so I called the manufacturer Rio. Their customer service rep refused to give me any data. He said that the powder was sold to a buyer who misrepresented what the powder was going to be used for and that the sale of the powder is illegal. It sounds more like a civil matter to me The rep did mention that they were going to retail the powder at the beginning of the year so they must have the data. I mentioned that in all probability if someone is injured because of faulty data and the manufacturer of the powder has withheld data for powder that they sold they will undoubtedly find themselves one of the deep pocket defendants in a law suit. (In my layman opinion.) You know how lawyers are. They sue everybody. He couldn't really get past the fact that the buyer said one thing and then retailed the powder. I called the company I bought the powder from. The rep was cooperative but I am not sure what he told me is reliable. He told me that the two # 5's are similar but that powders with similar burn rates still can have different characteristics. He said the powder data would be close to Unique and Universal and suggested using Universal Data and lowering the starting load by 15%. I am not in dire need of the powder. I bought a couple of pounds of Accurate # 5 at a gun show after I bought the Rio powder. I also have some WSF, and Promo. I think I will wait until someone more experienced than I works up the 38 special loads and publishes the data or the manufacturer starts retailing it and is forthcoming with data.
     
  2. scrandall01215

    scrandall01215 Washougal,WA Well-Known Member

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    Did you buy this from American reloading?

    Stacy
     
  3. eliduc

    eliduc Active Member

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    I did but I have no idea who Rio was complaining about.
     
  4. scrandall01215

    scrandall01215 Washougal,WA Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like it was American reloading they were complaining about I did some searching on the net and it sounds like they may have made a big mistake in there misrepresenting what there intent was. It sound like it may be illegal what they did. But I'm no lawyer!
    This was from American reloading no 38. Loads though, also to vague to use.

    Stacy

    image.jpg
     
  5. AMProducts

    AMProducts Maple Valley, WA Jerk, Ammo Manufacturer Silver Supporter

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    Just an FYI, powder manufacturers get really pissed about people buying OEM powder, packaging it and selling it to the public because it creates a number of problems for them. First of all, it causes problems for other distributors and may cause deals to fall through, second it can open up huge liabilities to the OEM.

    So yes, to say they got their panties in a bind is quite an understatement. As a result, they will certainly give you no loading information about it. I've gone through this with St. Marks and ADI in the past, usually it wasn't too big a deal because we got it from conventional sources and just needed some backup information.

    My suggestion is, to figure out who the retailer/distributors of that powder are in europe and look for that data. Off-hand, I can say buying powder from other distributors unless they have a proven track record is a COMPLETE CRAP SHOOT. I had one who sent me some powder for eval saying it was "the same as W-231", yet it was very quickly proven not to be anything close. Thankfully it was less energetic than 231, and a full charge would have been nearly twice the recommended for 231.
     
  6. WillametteWill

    WillametteWill Willamette Valley Active Member

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    It sounds like to me that it's the distributor / reseller that is going to have the legal problems. The manufacturer is doing the safe thing by not supplying data for the powder, basically stating "Don't use it!" I'm not a powder expert but I have read from several sources that powder companies supply ammo manufacturers with different powders compared to us handloaders. My understanding is the batch to batch qualities must be very close but ammo makers can make adjustments based on the qualities of each powder batch. Seems like I might have even seen this on a forum here.

    This could be why the manufacturer is so upset, understandably. If the company that sold it to you is willing to do this then, to me, their ethics are extremely compromised.
     
  7. AMProducts

    AMProducts Maple Valley, WA Jerk, Ammo Manufacturer Silver Supporter

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    Generally speaking, anything that's sold as "H335" is going to be H335 which is going to be H335. Because all of these conform to the recipe powder manufacturers use for H335. Now, the powder manufacturer (OEM) may call it something else, in the case of H335, it's sold OEM as SMP-735. Hodgdon, who I've bought SMP-735 from in the past will tell you nothing about SMP735, and unless you're clued in, you won't know these are the same powder.

    There are lot to lot variations, so tuning exact performance specifications has to be done per lot, but as far as being "safe" lot to lot consistency is rarely an issue.

    There is a lot of cross-over between the OEM powders I see, and the commercial powders we are all familiar with. For the sake of simplicity, I rarely buy a powder that isn't the same as a commercial powder, since I buy in larger quantities it comes in 45, 70, or 90lb drums.
     
  8. WillametteWill

    WillametteWill Willamette Valley Active Member

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    Thanks for your experienced input. Since there seems to be a lack of data for the powder in the OP, is this currently only an OEM powder never meant for commercial distribution?
     
  9. eliduc

    eliduc Active Member

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    I wouldn't say never. Maxam, the manufacturer was supposed to be retailing the powder in the US this year. Now they are saying early next year. it is sold in Europe for shotgun and handguns.
     
  10. AMProducts

    AMProducts Maple Valley, WA Jerk, Ammo Manufacturer Silver Supporter

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    Few things/updates. First, you need to find out what the technical name of the powder you have is.

    I googled around and found this, it might help in identifying your component:
    http://www.shooterspagetx.com/rio/components_powders.htm

    As far as load data goes, the nearest I've found is all shotgun data from bird hunters in the UK, absolutely nothing in terms of pistol data. So I think you need to lean on the people you bought it from for data. Really, IMHO selling someone powder without load data is kinda like selling an axe without a head, and it strikes me as being shady as F*$K.

    I'm going to look into a few things and I'll see if I can help you out. Worst case, if you want to buy me a barrel and transducer I'd be happy to work up loads for you :) (j/k, these things are expensive!!)
     
  11. RVTECH

    RVTECH LaPine Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I am missing something but why buy a powder you do not first have bonafide load data for?
     
    aquariumjunky, Sstrand and Steve M like this.
  12. eliduc

    eliduc Active Member

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    The company publishes load data for 9mm, 40, 45 etc. but nothing for 38/357. It's no different with some shotgun powders advertised and sold by U.S. companies as pistol powders. During this powder shortage you buy what you can get but it doesn't mean that I will use it unless I can get some reliable data. My son has a 9mm and is looking to buy a 45 so there is no problem with using it. There is a video using the published load in 9mm and it performed well. Does that answer your snarky question?
     
  13. aquariumjunky

    aquariumjunky Albany, Oregon Active Member

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    ow just use the 9mm data and work up, this is not rocket science, well maybe it is ;)
     
  14. Dyjital

    Dyjital Albany, Ore Flavorite Member Bronze Supporter

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    Caveat emptor