So, for further clarity on the self defense response above, if you have guns in your house, legally, and if you used one in self defense - say you were attacked with deadly force, would you subsequently be punished under the law for using a gun to defend your own life?
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The difference between shooting at paper in UK and the USA - Pt 1
- Thread Starter tac
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ok, it doesnt sound that expensive actually. In my experience some of my local gun clubs are expensive... to me.
that second part of my sentence... I meant that with all the hoops one has to go thru one would have to really really know they want to get into target shooting. Over here of course anyone can just buy a gun and try it out including shooting it anywhere on public lands, if they find out they are not really into it there was not much invested in time and effort. (also, my computers spell checker kicked in I left it as is...)
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Your guns must be kept locked away when not in use. Using one implies that you had time to get it out and load it and kill the unwanted person in your house - or injure him. In UK that would not go down well. Using the perp's own weapon, brought into the house for the purpose of intimidating you or scaring the crap out of you, or doing you harm, you are within your rights to take it off him and use it on him.
In the past ten years this has happened eleven times, each time resulting in the death of the perp.
Also a few years back in a neighbouring county, a bunch of gypsies, armed with axes,iron bars and so on, tried to invade an isolated farmhouse. The husband and wife used their legally-owned shotguns to repel boarders, injuring them all. Needless to say, this being the UK, they were arrested and charged with attempted murder. The judge, however, took a different view, and dismissed all charges against them, and in sentencing the gypsies, reminded them that invading a house where the owners were armed was likely to get them deadified. They all got long sentences. The farmer and his wife were feted greatly in a local pub.
tac
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I'd also like to emphasise, VERY strongly - that the chances of being attacked in your own home by somebody intent on killing you is so uncommonly unusual here in the UK as to be beyond the bounds of likelihood. I'm not being facile here when I say that it just doesn't happen except in movies. Please don't believe the crap you read about criminal UK.
This kind of thing happens to drug dealers, not ordinary folks like me.
As an aside, I'd like to see you try and break into MY house, or any other modern British house with the kind of windows and locks that we have installed.
tac
This kind of thing happens to drug dealers, not ordinary folks like me.
As an aside, I'd like to see you try and break into MY house, or any other modern British house with the kind of windows and locks that we have installed.
tac
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This country is just not shooting-minded - never has been. All the original locals were either killed off by the Romans, or pacified. The Romans also killed off the bears, and wolves died out in the 16th century, although they have recently been reintroduced into Scotland. Shooting is, after all, very much a minority sport, albeit one with almost 1.7 million participants that puts over $5 Billion into the national economy each year. But yes, you have to really want to do it, else why bother with all the PITA stuff necessary to enable you? For sure it's not a casual thing, but then, gun ownership is not a casual thing either, with all the responsibility it entails. The other thing that you have to remember is that there is no such thing here in UK as public land - somebody owns every last bit of it. Even so-called Common Land is owned by the local government authority.
Shootin' [note lack of the final 'g'] on estate shots for game birds can be as cheap for a day's sport as fifty pounds on a beaten shoot. Or up to £1500 on a major estate with aristocratic or even royal patronage - it depends on whether or not you drive a Chevy Blazer or a Range-Rover. Same for deer hunting, called 'stalking' here. Many Americans come over here to the 'hills' to shoot the surplus of deer, in England and Scotland as well as Northern Ireland. Bring your own rifles or borrow an estate rifle, and enjoy it like 38,000+ of your fellow countrymen did last year.
tac
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For all the restrictions an regs you have over there, you sure have a fine collection of firearms
I assure you that my little collection is nothing compared with most other club members. Many have fifty or sixty or even more.
tac
the cultural difference with guns between the UK and the US is large, it seems primarily there is no practical application for owning arms, its only for hunting or target sports... correct me if Im wrong.
I just recently too my first defensive handgun class (and will be taking the level 2 class next). Everything taught in that class was about gunfighting.
my point is if we take away our right for self defense, i could see how the vetting process you describe for the UK might be more appropriate for gun ownership. I wonder what the other cultural differenses are that give the UK a lower crime rate that its almost unheard of home invasions. Your also fortunate to afford the security measures in your home. Much more expensive than a gun alone...
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Koda - you wrote - the cultural difference with guns between the UK and the US is large, it seems primarily there is no practical application for owning arms, its only for hunting and vermin control or target sports... correct me if Im wrong.
Nope, you have struck the wood-fixing device firmly upon the head.
I just recently too my first defensive handgun class (and will be taking the level 2 class next). Everything taught in that class was about gunfighting.
Great stuff, eh?
my point is if we take away our right for self defense, i could see how the vetting process you describe for the UK might be more appropriate for gun ownership. I wonder what the other cultural differenses are that give the UK a lower crime rate that its almost unheard of home invasions.
We don't have your truly vast numbers of disaffected poor/disadvantaged people with easy access to illegal firearms. There MAY be a subculture here of permanently aggrieved ethnic minorities, but they are confined to the large conurbations, and not the rurals. It comes as a great surprise to furriners to learn that 75% of British industry is agricultural. There are no Chicagos or Detroits here.
Your also fortunate to afford the security measures in your home. Much more expensive than a gun alone...
Not really expensive in the scheme of things - in the last twenty years most homes here in UK have been built with these features ready-installed - a matter of ecological and money-saving exigencies on heating and security combined.
tac
Nope, you have struck the wood-fixing device firmly upon the head.
I just recently too my first defensive handgun class (and will be taking the level 2 class next). Everything taught in that class was about gunfighting.
Great stuff, eh?
my point is if we take away our right for self defense, i could see how the vetting process you describe for the UK might be more appropriate for gun ownership. I wonder what the other cultural differenses are that give the UK a lower crime rate that its almost unheard of home invasions.
We don't have your truly vast numbers of disaffected poor/disadvantaged people with easy access to illegal firearms. There MAY be a subculture here of permanently aggrieved ethnic minorities, but they are confined to the large conurbations, and not the rurals. It comes as a great surprise to furriners to learn that 75% of British industry is agricultural. There are no Chicagos or Detroits here.
Your also fortunate to afford the security measures in your home. Much more expensive than a gun alone...
Not really expensive in the scheme of things - in the last twenty years most homes here in UK have been built with these features ready-installed - a matter of ecological and money-saving exigencies on heating and security combined.
tac
Funny, I had the opposite impression. Perhaps if you remove the irrelevant qualifier "by somebody intent on killing you", it would make more sense? Often people are killed by others who did not originally intend to do so...
Some have noted that burglaries of occupied homes are much higher in places other than in the US, e.g.:
Lawyers Guns and Burglars (http://davekopel.org/2A/LawRev/LawyersGunsBurglars.htm)
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Interesting article there, based on experience within the territory of the US of A. I noted 'in Canada and Great Britain, burglars prefer to find the residents at home, since alarms will be turned off, and wallets and purses will be available for the taking'.
Even today, the vast majority of private dwellings in yUK do NOT have any kind of burglar alarm fitted. And most daytime burglaries of occupied houses target older people who are less likely to put up much of a struggle, and are more likely to suffer fatal injuries as a result of resisting.
The difference, however, is much more than that. In the USA the burglar is FAR more likely to be armed, usually with a firearm, than he or she is here in Europe. That's why in the USA the miscreant targets those homes where there is less or no likelihood of the home-owner being able to defend themselves. Happily for the law-abiding citizen, they are very often badly wrong, and they get their butts handed to them.
Locally, back in the late '80s, a car filled with four equipment-thieving gypsies got pinned to a haystack by the farmer using his Manitou hay-lifter forks - right through the car windows after he rammed them. His son, with a shotgun, was standing by in case they tried to get out of the broken windshield.
There are some people you just don't want to p*iss off.
tac
Even today, the vast majority of private dwellings in yUK do NOT have any kind of burglar alarm fitted. And most daytime burglaries of occupied houses target older people who are less likely to put up much of a struggle, and are more likely to suffer fatal injuries as a result of resisting.
The difference, however, is much more than that. In the USA the burglar is FAR more likely to be armed, usually with a firearm, than he or she is here in Europe. That's why in the USA the miscreant targets those homes where there is less or no likelihood of the home-owner being able to defend themselves. Happily for the law-abiding citizen, they are very often badly wrong, and they get their butts handed to them.
Locally, back in the late '80s, a car filled with four equipment-thieving gypsies got pinned to a haystack by the farmer using his Manitou hay-lifter forks - right through the car windows after he rammed them. His son, with a shotgun, was standing by in case they tried to get out of the broken windshield.
There are some people you just don't want to p*iss off.
tac
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Tac is it difficult to own or shoot muzzleloaders over there?
How about someone from the U.S. bringing over a muzzleloader to shoot at a club?
Going after after a deer with my Hawken copy or an original Longrifle would be fun as well.
Thanks,
Andy
How about someone from the U.S. bringing over a muzzleloader to shoot at a club?
Going after after a deer with my Hawken copy or an original Longrifle would be fun as well.
Thanks,
Andy
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Tac is it difficult to own or shoot muzzleloaders over there?
ANY muzzleloader is just another form of ignition. Here in yUK we have them up to 2" bore - punt guns, just like you do. Many thousands of shooters and re-enactors own muzzleloaders from Cromwellian times [see the Sealed Knot Society]- the English Civil War, to your recent Blue and Grey conflict and right up to date. The MLAGB not only has thousands of members, but their own dedicated BP-only ranges in the Midlands. The original NRA [British, BTW] was founded on the use of muzzle-loaders, and they have a HUGE following today.
NOT for hunting, though, since the UK requires both velocity and muzzle energy to be of a certain level. No m/l long arm complies with either, regardless of calibre or velocity. Sorry. Both 1500 ft lbs m/e and 2500 fps needed.
How about someone from the U.S. bringing over a muzzleloader to shoot at a club?
Going after after a deer with my Hawken copy or an original Longrifle would be fun as well.
Well, many American shooters bring their rifles over to shoot at the many competitions, mainly at Bisley, so I see no reason why a muzzleloader shouldn't do the same for the many M/L comps we have here at the MLAGB shooting centre or Bisley, where you can shoot 1200 yards on Stickledown ranges. No BP, though - you'd have to come to an arrangement with your hosts since you are not permitted to hold BP in the UK. Coming to a local range would have to be by invitation, and take place on an official guest day, too. All clubs have them - twelve a year.
No deer though, for the reasons I noted above.
tac
ANY muzzleloader is just another form of ignition. Here in yUK we have them up to 2" bore - punt guns, just like you do. Many thousands of shooters and re-enactors own muzzleloaders from Cromwellian times [see the Sealed Knot Society]- the English Civil War, to your recent Blue and Grey conflict and right up to date. The MLAGB not only has thousands of members, but their own dedicated BP-only ranges in the Midlands. The original NRA [British, BTW] was founded on the use of muzzle-loaders, and they have a HUGE following today.
NOT for hunting, though, since the UK requires both velocity and muzzle energy to be of a certain level. No m/l long arm complies with either, regardless of calibre or velocity. Sorry. Both 1500 ft lbs m/e and 2500 fps needed.
How about someone from the U.S. bringing over a muzzleloader to shoot at a club?
Going after after a deer with my Hawken copy or an original Longrifle would be fun as well.
Well, many American shooters bring their rifles over to shoot at the many competitions, mainly at Bisley, so I see no reason why a muzzleloader shouldn't do the same for the many M/L comps we have here at the MLAGB shooting centre or Bisley, where you can shoot 1200 yards on Stickledown ranges. No BP, though - you'd have to come to an arrangement with your hosts since you are not permitted to hold BP in the UK. Coming to a local range would have to be by invitation, and take place on an official guest day, too. All clubs have them - twelve a year.
No deer though, for the reasons I noted above.
tac
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Thanks Tac.
Andy
Andy
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Ah, I meany ANY kind of shotgun that has a magazine/barrel capacity of three shots. SxS, Over & Under, pump or Semi-auto.
After three shots you need to have a FAC, so that you can go wild-fowling, or take part in practical shotgun shooting.
I guess you know all about practical shotgun? Our club has a separate section for the PS-gunners - about fifty members so far and growing.
tac
PS - One club member collects Webley and Scotts, and has done since he was twelve. He has the UK's largest collection now - around three hundred or so dating from the days before Mr Webley and Mr Scott got together.
After three shots you need to have a FAC, so that you can go wild-fowling, or take part in practical shotgun shooting.
I guess you know all about practical shotgun? Our club has a separate section for the PS-gunners - about fifty members so far and growing.
tac
PS - One club member collects Webley and Scotts, and has done since he was twelve. He has the UK's largest collection now - around three hundred or so dating from the days before Mr Webley and Mr Scott got together.
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Thanks, Tac, for your very informative article. I have a question. Some years ago (I belive it was 2003 or 2007) our gun club hosted an international long range shoot and we were fortunate to have participants from Scotland, Irland, and England among participants. One of the English participants was telling us on his requirments for owing a firearm in the UK. He showed us his required paperwork that included the list of firearms he owned and the maximun number of rounds he could own for each firearmand he could expect an inspection any time day or night to make sure he was in complience. He told us that if he wanted to purchase another firearm he had to go to the local police and ask permision from an officer who knew absolutly nothing about fire arms. Since this was some years ago I'm wondering if there is a difference between rural and sububan requirements for fire arm ownership? The person telling us this was also a barrel maker and made some precision barrels for the UK military.
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Thanks, Tac, for your very informative article. I have a question. Some years ago (I belive it was 2003 or 2007) our gun club hosted an international long range shoot and we were fortunate to have participants from Scotland, Irland, and England among participants. One of the English participants was telling us on his requirments for owing a firearm in the UK. He showed us his required paperwork that included the list of firearms he owned and the maximun number of rounds he could own for each firearm and he could expect an inspection any time day or night to make sure he was in complience.
This, Sir, is complete washhog. Speculative inspection of your firearms needs to be accompanied by a search warrant, and good reason needs to be provided before that can happen. The rest of his comment is true - we ARE limited to the amount of ammuntion that we can buy or hold at any one time. MY list is reasonable - 700 each of 7.5, 6.5, 7mm, .308Win, 45-70, .38Spec/.357Mag and 2000 .22LR.
He told us that if he wanted to purchase another firearm he had to go to the local police and ask permision from an officer who knew absolutly nothing about fire arms.
More sh*te. To obtain another firearm, you go on line and download the FAC 1 form - it is the same whether it is for a first acquisition or a variation to your present FAC to get another one. If it is the same calibre then it is free, if you are changing calibre then it is £60. You fill it out and send it off to the county police HQ Firearms and Explosives Department. After a few days, the Firearms Enquiries Officer for your area - a CIVILIAN, usually ex-military, ex-police or both [as I explained in my long post] gives you a call, comes and has a chat about why you need another gun [taking up a new discipline perhaps], and a couple of weeks, or months, later, you get your new FAC with the new addition on it. All the FEOs in our county are shooters, three of them are fellow club-members. How else could they talk to you about guns and shooting?
When you actually BUY it, the dealer writes the details into the 'acquired' column, and that's it. As for visiting a police station and asking permission from an ignorant police officer, that is total tosh. YOU know what you have to do to get another gun, and walking into a Police station NOT how it is done. The authority is the county Chief Constable, not some plonker in blue behind the 'hello' desk.
Since this was some years ago I'm wondering if there is a difference between rural and sububan requirements for fire arm ownership?
I have been a UK FAC holder since 1967, in seven different counties over that period, and you can take it to the bank that nothing he told you has any connection with reality. There is absolutely NO difference between owning a gun in a town or city, and living in the rural country. There ARE problems with the location of your gun safe if you live on a boat or in a trailer, but both are very unusual circumstances in this country - we don't have vast trailer-parks like you do, filled with people of questionable life-styles. Basically, for target rifle shooting, you must fulfill the following requirements in UK law -
1. Are you a FULL member of a gun club? Yes.
2. Do you have good reason to acquire and possess a target rifle? Yes - You are a member of a gun club that 'does' target rifle shooting.
3. Are you of sound mind, a non-criminal, and a state of good health that does not require you to ingest mind-altering drugs or drugs without which you would otherwise collapse in a twitching heap? And have common-sense and good character? [Remember, three people have to say that you are]. Yes.
Then the Chief Constable of the county, having been assured that all this is true, SHALL issue you with a FAC.
Period.
The person telling us this was also a barrel maker and made some precision barrels for the UK military.
HE said? Accuracy International in UK makes precision barrels for the UK military for the last twenty-something years from 1988 at least, when the L96A1 sniping rifle was adopted. They and they alone, make that entire series of rifles, for you and forty other countries. Recently, Lewis Machine Tool in the USA has been contracted to make the designated marksman rifles. There are no other sources of barrels for the UK Armed Forces.
tac
This, Sir, is complete washhog. Speculative inspection of your firearms needs to be accompanied by a search warrant, and good reason needs to be provided before that can happen. The rest of his comment is true - we ARE limited to the amount of ammuntion that we can buy or hold at any one time. MY list is reasonable - 700 each of 7.5, 6.5, 7mm, .308Win, 45-70, .38Spec/.357Mag and 2000 .22LR.
He told us that if he wanted to purchase another firearm he had to go to the local police and ask permision from an officer who knew absolutly nothing about fire arms.
More sh*te. To obtain another firearm, you go on line and download the FAC 1 form - it is the same whether it is for a first acquisition or a variation to your present FAC to get another one. If it is the same calibre then it is free, if you are changing calibre then it is £60. You fill it out and send it off to the county police HQ Firearms and Explosives Department. After a few days, the Firearms Enquiries Officer for your area - a CIVILIAN, usually ex-military, ex-police or both [as I explained in my long post] gives you a call, comes and has a chat about why you need another gun [taking up a new discipline perhaps], and a couple of weeks, or months, later, you get your new FAC with the new addition on it. All the FEOs in our county are shooters, three of them are fellow club-members. How else could they talk to you about guns and shooting?
When you actually BUY it, the dealer writes the details into the 'acquired' column, and that's it. As for visiting a police station and asking permission from an ignorant police officer, that is total tosh. YOU know what you have to do to get another gun, and walking into a Police station NOT how it is done. The authority is the county Chief Constable, not some plonker in blue behind the 'hello' desk.
Since this was some years ago I'm wondering if there is a difference between rural and sububan requirements for fire arm ownership?
I have been a UK FAC holder since 1967, in seven different counties over that period, and you can take it to the bank that nothing he told you has any connection with reality. There is absolutely NO difference between owning a gun in a town or city, and living in the rural country. There ARE problems with the location of your gun safe
1. Are you a FULL member of a gun club? Yes.
2. Do you have good reason to acquire and possess a target rifle? Yes - You are a member of a gun club that 'does' target rifle shooting.
3. Are you of sound mind, a non-criminal, and a state of good health that does not require you to ingest mind-altering drugs or drugs without which you would otherwise collapse in a twitching heap? And have common-sense and good character? [Remember, three people have to say that you are]. Yes.
Then the Chief Constable of the county, having been assured that all this is true, SHALL issue you with a FAC.
Period.
The person telling us this was also a barrel maker and made some precision barrels for the UK military.
HE said? Accuracy International in UK makes precision barrels for the UK military for the last twenty-something years from 1988 at least, when the L96A1 sniping rifle was adopted. They and they alone, make that entire series of rifles, for you and forty other countries. Recently, Lewis Machine Tool in the USA has been contracted to make the designated marksman rifles. There are no other sources of barrels for the UK Armed Forces.
tac
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Ah, the dreaded strike-through resurfaces......
WTF?
As they say.
tac
WTF?
As they say.
tac
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