The Cody Nutter shooting

awshoot

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Too many, "hold my beer..." analogies in this one.
RIP Tveidt.
Hope Nutter receives a competent defense attorney and a fair trial.
He worked in a fast food joint -- I suspect he'll get a public defender.

It probably was a good self-defense shooting based on the deceased's friends' description of it, but there is a big problem with him not calling for help. The person who died didn't die right there, and so I wonder if Nutter's failure to call for assistance will hurt him. I can understand why he would flee with a group of people already proven to be violent, but his failure to make a call to 911 at the earliest opportunity is likely going to bite him badly -- the prosecutor will argue making the call could have saved the attacker's life. At least I suspect that will be an argument.
 
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My interpretation is he was probably so scared from the encounter, and because of what he did he was not thinking rationally and the 'fight or flight' response was so strong he simply fled.

The fact things were falling from his truck bed as he drove off suggests he was very upset and was not thinking clearly and under duress as he left.
Good points here too.

He may NOT have had a cellular telephone or NO reception if he did have one on him or in his truck.

Perhaps he did want to report it and drove away to report it elsewhere?

If he FLED the scene and stuff fell out of his truck... I am sure that he was afraid because if someone was not afraid and under NORMAL circumstances... they would not flee like that.

The entire situation is not only SAD but it is STUPID too.

I do understand the fight or flee thinking in very specific circumstances! Been there - done that and I have always TRIED TO AVOID many strange or dangerous things in my life.

With that said, there are some really crazy people out there who want to START SOMETHING alone or with their family or with a small/large crowd IF they see or hear something that 'THEY' do NOT like or approve of in their lives! POLITICALLY? There are some really NUTSO anti gun types of people including some others (Burn/loot/murder and other extremists from ALL sides.) out there that are so far off the reservation MENTALLY... a sane person should stay CLEAR OF THEM.

Take care.

Cate
PS: I have seen some odd things all ALONE in the wilderness, with my late husband, with a couple of friends and even WITH my MT husband. ALL across the country in my 70 years on this earth.

I have been alone and seen some questionable things while in my yard too. (Back east - very rural and out here in the west - remote and in town.) And if I was all alone in my yard (In or Out of town. City or Rural.) and I saw a group of young men (Rainbow type of people and other grifters that were ON my LOCAL MT news for various bad things.) get dropped off from some old type of school bus down 2 other roads or streets and I was the ONLY house or cabin on a dead end city street OR off of a desolate mountain road on a private ranch butt up to wilderness... I was prudent. I turned off my hose/faucet. I moved a couple of things to my front porch, took them inside and went inside of my house. I double checked the locks on my doors and watched what was going on. Been there - done that. Sure I was armed while I was working outside with a gun on my hip (Years gone by.) but I no longer had my old, late dogs with me from back east.

These types of SOB STORY crooked grifters and criminal thieves were in the boonies and in towns across this state. Fact not fiction. They did GO to cars, trucks and ON porches to see if the vehicle doors AND front doors were LOCKED or not. They ignored Private Property - NO Trespassing signs too. They would stop at any vehicle that was not inside of a garage with the door down/locked. They would stop at every single house in a newer subdivision and at cabins or fancy homes in the boonies and give a VERY LIGHT knock (More like a TAP if you had no sounds blaring from inside of your home.) but before they DID THAT... they FELT THE DOOR KNOB and turned it to see if it was LOCKED or not. Uh huh.

Trust your GUT, trust your little voice, trust the hairs on your neck, trust what you SEE and hear. Pay attention to your surroundings!

And if you see something that you question... get your butt and your stuff INSIDE of your cabin, house, truck or car and stay inside of your home or LEAVE the scene with your truck/car doors LOCKED BEFORE SOME crazy or drunk/doped up people try to start something with you especially IF you are all alone or even with one other person. There have been couples murdered even while WALKING/HIKING their dogs in the boonies and in some towns because some people came UP to them or they ignored some signs and the innocent people, now Victims in some specific cases, CAME UPON something that some people wanted to HIDE or cover up.

I remember one of several cases while house and land hunting in a REMOTE, very remote area, that I DO KNOW VERY WELL out here. My MT husband and my NW MT realtor know the area well and remember the same things to this day. The agent was my late husband's age and a Nam Vet as my late husband was. Anyway, there was a piece of land that interested me very much and it had an old crappy cabin on it. I did not care about the cabin but since I was THERE in a very remote area... I wanted to walk the land and SEE the cabin since I was already there. I immediately got a BAD VIBE. The agent said that he thought there might be SQUATTERS in the cabin and he got a BAD VIBE. My MT husband got a BAD VIBE. But I got the bad vibe first and was the FIRST ONE to say something. NO cellular reception was there. We decided to LEAVE although ALL 3 OF US were armed. Open and conceal carry! The agent got back to town, notified the owner and the sheriff's department because he thought that squatters were there which ended up being TRUE. Anyway, in or out of town... be careful of your surroundings!

It is a shame what happened. I am not taking one side over the other since I do NOT really KNOW what happened since I was NOT there to see it all GO DOWN.

I have heard about some drunk/doped up people who get all nasty if they SEE someone on what THEY THINK is their private land when it is PUBLIC federal, state or county land.

I have read reports where some rich land owner who may not be drunk or doped up come up to campers who were/are LEGALLY doing the right thing on public land but the private land owner does not want people on public land that butts up to THEIR PRIVATE LAND. Some of them have been nasty to innocent campers who kept/keep a CLEAN CAMP and mind their own business while camping legally too.

There have been goofy people who put up signs on public land and on remote ROADS stating that it was PRIVATE LAND too. OFF of some very remote roads just to scare off innocent people looking at property for sale. They do this to scare off buyers and, up north, it is not unusual to SEE this happen too. I took some of those signs to be REAL but they were put up by some 'yahoo' types who liked to shoot up SIGNS on remote roads too. The ONLY way that I knew that they were FALSE SIGNS was because the RE agent, my MT born/raised husband, the MAPS and boundary lines stated something entirely DIFFERENT.
 
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Jonnyuma

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I read both articles and they served up way more questions than anwers.
I lost interest in the second posted article when they mention the shot man was a father of 4. Completely irrelevant to anything but tugging heart strings
That was a weird one... no new facts so let's print some background on the decedent. The Comments read like a Facebook condolences page and also fail to scratch the surface or reference the actual story... like generic comments culled from somewhere else and pasted on at the end.
 
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I lost interest in the second posted article when they mention the shot man was a father of 4. Completely irrelevant to anything but tugging heart strings. The shootee was confirmed by both the shooter and his friends to have charged the shooter. Sounds like poor judgement was made, but self defense nonetheless. Case should be closed on that alone
The report of the "Victim" having four children is nothing but media hype and not surprising given today's media. They must all go to the same school of "If It Bleeds, It Reads". As a prominent politician has opined, the Media is too often part of our societal problems. Also, just think of the time and money that could be saved if we do away with lawyers, grand juries, judges, bailiffs, court buildings, parking lots and more if we simply let the Media write the story and then let the "Court of Public Opinion" resolve the matter. :confused:
 

WillametteWill

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Several good "food for thought" lessons to consider here.

Using lethal force against an unarmed (from what I can currently see) attacker. Disparity of force may or may not be an issue but it looks like the two others did not attack. But if they were in a position where the defender could reasonably believe he was being outnumbered it could...but as a defender you need to be able to articulate this.

Leaving the scene (okay to avoid further confrontation), not calling 911 and burning evidence not okay and shows consciousness of guilt.

Having non-lethal alternatives always available. If our only tool is a hammer (gun), unfortunately every problem is not a nail (gunfight).

Remembering we are judged by the "reasonable man" standard, not the "reasonable to a bunch of folks a gun forum" standard. Shooting an (apparently) unarmed attacker, fleeing, not calling 911, possibly drinking (or could have been old can targets), burning evidence, and then who knows what he told police...not going to bode well for the "reasonable man" jury member at this stage.

Having a plan for deadly force encounters is important. Having a plan for immediately after the encounter...as important presuming we survive step #1. Many of us spend hours each year on the range, not a bad idea to give the post shooting process some attention as well.
 
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He worked in a fast food joint -- I suspect he'll get a public defender.

It probably was a good self-defense shooting based on the deceased's friends' description of it, but there is a big problem with him not calling for help. The person who died didn't die right there, and so I wonder if Nutter's failure to call for assistance will hurt him. I can understand why he would flee with a group of people already proven to be violent, but his failure to make a call to 911 at the earliest opportunity is likely going to bite him badly -- the prosecutor will argue making the call could have saved the attacker's life. At least I suspect that will be an argument.
(Disclaimer - not a lawyer, didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night)

I suspect the first point you raised (the type of attorney) will make the difference here.

In Spokane around '95 there was a shooting at the 'Vu that had similar circumstance where an aggressor was killed, the shooter fled, and was ultimately apprehended after a car accident. The media had tried to spin the victim as a sympathetic character, but the shooter's attorneys (and witnesses) eviscerated the charges and got them acquitted of all charges (jury also ruled it self defense, so he wasn't liable for legal fees and had protection from civil suits.) He didn't have a PD - he had a top flight defense attorney because his parents had money. Money matters, especially in cases like this.

Also a caveat - I knew the shooter (didn't meet him until his trial was nearing end-phase) and the amount of detail the media left out was disgusting. Won't surprise me if this is also the same.
 
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if the guy didn't call 911 at the first opportunity he had cell service, and had a 'burn barrel', it would stand to reason he thought he could lay low and get away with it. Self defence or not.

Afterall, there were no security/traffic cameras, and it probably happened so quick, he assumed the deceased guys buddies didn't get any cell phone video or pics, and didn't write his plate down. He would have just been some random recreational shooter in the woods if he didn't leave things with his ID on them behind. The best the witnesses could probably give is a generic description of a white guy, and a make model and color of truck. That's a pretty broad group to narrow down.

It seems like he should have realized he left a bunch of evidence at the scene though, once he started gathering things for the burn barrel. Maybe by then, it was too late to try and act responsible.

As for disparity of force, whether or not it was SD, thats a tough one. If an unarmed person charges you, and you have an AR, obviously you have a disparity of force. If you choose not to shoot, the only other option is to back away from your firing line/tables/set up that I would assume has other weapons and ammo all over it. Do you wait until charging guy has access to your other weapons? Do you backpedal 10 miles down the mountain back into town? Warning shots with an appeal to the non-charging guys to control their friend? Very tough call.
 

RVTECH

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not a bad idea to give the post shooting process some attention as well.
Good idea and good points as well however it's entirely possible the friends of the deceased could have been hysterical, screaming out of their minds and continuing to threaten Nutter and he believed his only recourse was to get out of there quickly - however he could have gotten a safe distance away and then called 911 but I may be assuming too much.

the amount of detail the media left out was disgusting.
This is for sure!

The July 4th shooting along the Mackenzie River a few years is a good example.

If I had not known a relative of the shooter I would have never known all the details however in this case the shooter acted incorrectly and unlawfully and was ultimately charged.
 
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Reading the gofundme page setup for the deceased by his sister, gives the perception of a troubled and confrontational man. But I'll admit that is some aggressive armchair psychology I am spouting.

"After a rough patch, Dan was starting to turn a new leaf and after many years, he was finally able to start spending time with his children again as his ex-wife has kept the children away from him for a very long time."

and

" I can hear him now saying not to make this go fund me. He was so giving but hated asking anyone for help. He was stubborn and prideful but I know in the end he would be grateful for the help to his children."

Now for some armchair lawyering...It would be really interesting to hear the full first hand account from his friends as first told to the police. Seems like they may have already outed their buddy as being an aggressor, based on what has been released. Understand that these articles are most likely 100% based off of the police report which at this point is only their account. Them not waiting to speak to a lawyer before making statements to the police might be the biggest gift handed to Nutter in his life.

Pour one out for the detective that has to gather evidence at a public shooting range for a shooting investigation.
 
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Cosimel

Cosimel

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He worked in a fast food joint -- I suspect he'll get a public defender.

It probably was a good self-defense shooting based on the deceased's friends' description of it, but there is a big problem with him not calling for help. The person who died didn't die right there, and so I wonder if Nutter's failure to call for assistance will hurt him. I can understand why he would flee with a group of people already proven to be violent, but his failure to make a call to 911 at the earliest opportunity is likely going to bite him badly -- the prosecutor will argue making the call could have saved the attacker's life. At least I suspect that will be an argument.
More over, it's well known among those who've studied defensive use of lethal force that it is a race to 911. The first report is, at least initially, presumed to be the more creditable report. A failure to report at all is really, really bad.
 

RVTECH

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A failure to report at all is really, really bad.
Yep - kind of takes any objectivity out of it .

I do know of a situation one time where a person committed a 'crime' (accidentally) did not report it initially, went home and finally called the police several hours later and it still went ok for him. It was a different time when it happened (approx 40 years ago) and prevailing attitudes and the circumstances surrounding it were of a different social 'nature'.
 
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Cosimel

Cosimel

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(Disclaimer - not a lawyer, didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night)

I suspect the first point you raised (the type of attorney) will make the difference here.

In Spokane around '95 there was a shooting at the 'Vu that had similar circumstance where an aggressor was killed, the shooter fled, and was ultimately apprehended after a car accident. The media had tried to spin the victim as a sympathetic character, but the shooter's attorneys (and witnesses) eviscerated the charges and got them acquitted of all charges (jury also ruled it self defense, so he wasn't liable for legal fees and had protection from civil suits.) He didn't have a PD - he had a top flight defense attorney because his parents had money. Money matters, especially in cases like this.

Also a caveat - I knew the shooter (didn't meet him until his trial was nearing end-phase) and the amount of detail the media left out was disgusting. Won't surprise me if this is also the same.
This is an excellent argument for carry insurance since it illustrates that you don't have to be concealed carrying to end up in a self defense shooting. I regularly target shoot on public lands, and while I go to great efforts to not only shoot responsibly, I'm always cognitive of my personal safety, or more specifically, being confronted while armed. All of the same 'what a reasonable person would think/do' requirements would apply as it would in your home or in public as a licenced conceal carrier. It's because of the potential for this sort of circumstance that I'm grateful that I carry USCCA insurance which would provide ample legal representation under a situation like this.
 

RVTECH

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Dude should have just kept driving and minded his own business.
Undoubtedly however the following suggests 'something':
" and after many years, he was finally able to start spending time with his children again as his ex-wife has kept the children away from him for a very long time."
So psychological issues? Violent outbursts? Maybe physical violence?

Now I am guilty of 'armchair psychology' but 'children away from him for a VERY long time' says something.
 
This type of thing seems to happen more and more...meaning people not minding their own business or for some reason thinking they can impose their will/opinions/feelings on others. It's become the norm that this type of behaviour is not only allowed but in some cases encouraged (think riots) and when it goes south everyone wants to scream murder. If the dead guy had just left well enough alone he would be alive to see his kids (or not) and drink more beer. But he just had to pull over and confront a guy minding his own business target shooting.

Based on the current available information including the deceased guys own friends, I feel ZERO empathy towards this situation. Kids? Who DOESN'T have kids these days? That has nothing to do with the poor choices made nor the outcome. The GoFundMe should donate the money to an anti-bullying organization because that's exactly what the dead guy was doing.
 

RVTECH

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I consider myself lucky - in all my years of shooting in the woods (alone or accompanied) I have never been hassled by anyone. Maybe part of it has been because of my location (more shooting acceptance/rural area) possibly. Heck I have had a few LEOs stop to BS - one once offered to buy one of my guns he liked !

Also where I shoot is not particularly 'remote' and relatively close to town. Even then I do not see many people drive by even on weekends in the summer. I have been at one of my places for several hours and never seen a vehicle - and I am near a well traveled road relatively close to Sunriver.

I guess however it can happen anywhere though and although the events surrounding this situation are very unusual I cannot help but to believe the guns and shooting aspect will endure the criticism regardless of the outcome.
 

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