The Big Lie Campaign Continues

[fingolfen]

Now CNN, Obama, and Mexican President Calderon are singing in harmony – the tune “ban that assault weapon”

More here: <broken link removed>

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[ajf1]

I'm not too worried about what CNN is singing anymore, or at least after yesterday's references to the Teabagging parties. I'm still laughing about that one.

 

[fingolfen]

I'm not too worried about what CNN is singing anymore, or at least after yesterday's references to the Teabagging parties. I'm still laughing about that one.

Yeah, that was funny...

Unfortunately the network still holds credibility with a disturbingly large portion of the population...

 

[Frog]

......... "disturbingly large portion of the population..."

Dem and their MSNBC friends !

What a joke these 2 are !! Like Ostrage, with their heads buried in the sand and sh*t so deep, they only come up to breath when kicked in the a**. Then complain that they weren't kicked soon enough and should somehow be compensated for their stupidity.

Distrubing?

Yes, very!!

Frog.

 

[swoop]

I wonder, did the prez bow to Caldero'n? or just salute.

 

[Spray-n-pray]

Or kiss his........... never mind.

 

[Doc In UPlace]

Teabagging, the best joke yet! What will those wacky Fox folks come up with next!!!

 

[elsullo]

Thursday nite's ABC News covered the Southbound assault weapon flood again. They estimate that 2000 assault weapons per month leave the USA for Mexico---but with absolutely no supporting evidence of that.

They quoted the Mexican government statistics that of recovered criminal weapons, they found that OF THOSE WHOSE ORIGIN COULD BE DETERMINED, ninety percent came from the USA. The Mexicans did NOT mention what fraction of all of the weapon's origins COULD NOT BE DETERMINED.

What a glorious manipulation of statistics, even assuming that those can be trusted! Ninety percent of WHAT fraction of the seized arms? It is utterly insulting that ABC News could twist the "facts" that way........................elsullo :angry:

 

[Frog]

"They estimate that 2000 assault weapons per month leave the USA for Mexico---"

I wonder where they're getting their ammo?

Frog.

 

[NWMoss]

"They estimate that 2000 assault weapons per month leave the USA for Mexico---"

I wonder where they're getting their ammo?

Frog.

Walmart...

 

[Frog]

I think down there, they call it Sam's Club!!

Frog.

 

[sjmag]

We took the Democrats a little to lightly a few years ago when we had the White House, the House and Senate. Alot of people were talking about the end of the Dem Party. Now we have a growing administration to the likes this country has never seen. Just because Fox is kicking a@# right now doesnt mean we should feel safe.

 

[holypaper]

If one asserts that the media are lying and manipulating statistics for not supplying hard evidence; then, by the same logic, you posters are lying and manipulating statistics for not supplying hard evidence to the contrary.

Realistically, these weapons probably come from many sources. If any of them come from the U.S., then WE have a problem that WE need to correct. Banning certain types of weapons won't correct anything. WE need to plug the holes through which the weapons are being transported. Stop reacting like a bunch of hysterical schoolgirls and get busy. Write, call, or email your representatives and tell them to increase enforcement of smuggling laws, rather than banning weapons.


Rabid anti-selfdelusionist.

 

[tionico]

In the legal and political section there are two threads relating to this, one posting an indepth expose by Fox News, with documented sources and data, detailing the "90&#37;" fraud. VERY interesting read.....

What picks ME is that Obama was quoted a couple of days ago, chatting with Calder&#243;n, that we already have the laws on the books to prevent weapons migrating southward... we need to devote more resources to enforcing those laws. Now, a few days later, he's pleading for a ban on these things? Somehow I get the feeling Se&#241;or Calder&#243;n is laughing his head off at how gullible and manipulatable Meester Oh Bomba is beeeeing.... it was the Pres of Mexico promoting the ban on the basis of the spun statistics.... and somehow I can't quite swallow that he does not KNOW those "facts" have been twisted. Now were the FORMER Pres of Mexico still in power, I could make some jokes about the Fox......

 

[NWMoss]

If one asserts that the media are lying and manipulating statistics for not supplying hard evidence; then, by the same logic, you posters are lying and manipulating statistics for not supplying hard evidence to the contrary.

Well, first a "poster" would need to know where the media is getting their "facts" from...

So, according to the media - these facts are from Calderón and a report from BATF.

HOWEVER: you will also find that "The Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms originally gave the 90 percent figure during congressional testimony last year. But it says the number actually applies only to the fraction of guns seized by Mexican authorities that have been turned over to the U.S. for tracing."

As you find more of the pieces of the puzzle, it DOES become apparent that the "mainstream media" is using reports to their advantadge.

So, your call: is this twisting and manipulating the facts or not?

 

[fingolfen]

If one asserts that the media are lying and manipulating statistics for not supplying hard evidence; then, by the same logic, you posters are lying and manipulating statistics for not supplying hard evidence to the contrary.

Realistically, these weapons probably come from many sources. If any of them come from the U.S., then WE have a problem that WE need to correct. Banning certain types of weapons won't correct anything. WE need to plug the holes through which the weapons are being transported. Stop reacting like a bunch of hysterical schoolgirls and get busy. Write, call, or email your representatives and tell them to increase enforcement of smuggling laws, rather than banning weapons.


Rabid anti-selfdelusionist.

You want data... here's data:

<broken link removed>

In 2007-2008, according to ATF Special Agent William Newell, Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Close to 6,000 were successfully traced -- and of those, 90 percent -- 5,114 to be exact, according to testimony in Congress by William Hoover -- were found to have come from the U.S.

But in those same two years, according to the Mexican government, 29,000 guns were recovered at crime scenes.

In other words, 68 percent of the guns that were recovered were never submitted for tracing. And when you weed out the roughly 6,000 guns that could not be traced from the remaining 32 percent, it means 83 percent of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico could not be traced to the U.S.

 

[swoop]

I wonder, can any of these guns be traced to other countries? Or is there no intrest in doing that by us or mexico.

 

[holypaper]

In other words, 68 percent of the guns that were recovered were never submitted for tracing.

You're as good at manipulating statistics as CNN. If 68% of the weapons were not submitted for tracing, that does not mean that none of that group came from the U.S. It means the origin of that group is unknown. Some of them MAY have come from the U.S.

I hope you're not naive enough to believe that Fox news would not slant the truth to suit their own political agenda (as does CNN). The truth undoubtedly lies between the two reports.

The statistics are irrelevant, really. You're firing all of your guns at a diversion with your back turned the main attack. The problem is the violence which may endanger our citizens. The problem is the smuggling of weapons from the U.S. to Mexico.

Rabid anti-selfdelusionist

 

[Trlsmn]

You're as good at manipulating statistics as CNN. If 68&#37; of the weapons were not submitted for tracing, that does not mean that none of that group came from the U.S. It means the origin of that group is unknown. Some of them MAY have come from the U.S.

I hope you're not naive enough to believe that Fox news would not slant the truth to suit their own political agenda (as does CNN). The truth undoubtedly lies between the two reports.

The statistics are irrelevant, really. You're firing all of your guns at a diversion with your back turned the main attack. The problem is the violence which may endanger our citizens. The problem is the smuggling of weapons from the U.S. to Mexico.

Rabid anti-selfdelusionist

The problem is Antigun groups using Mexico's problems to justify an anti 2nd amendment agenda.

So are the Automatic weapons, grenades, and rockets coming from the legitimate American gun owner? Answer: NO! Mexico has 2 international borders and 2 wide open ocean fronts, where do you think gun smugglers bring in the guns?

Yes Fox is the one reporting that the figures are wrong, but their information is sourced from the BATF and the Immigration Customs agencies, the information is available to CNN but they and the Obama administration choosing to ignore the truth doesn't reflect badly on Fox, it reflects badly on CNN and the antigun agenda.
<broken link removed>

 

[tionico]

holypaper said:
"You're as good at manipulating statistics as CNN. If 68&#37; of the weapons were not submitted for tracing, that does not mean that none of that group came from the U.S. It means the origin of that group is unknown. Some of them MAY have come from the U.S.".

Having read the Fox article in its entirety more than once, and a few other similar reports (sources I can't recall just now) it is plain, within the documentation referred by Fox, that the 68% of the total seized weapons NOT surrendered to BATF for tracing, were untraceable to anywhere.. in other words, NO serial numbers. However, the origins of those weapons is also obviously NOT the USA. Some are full automatic weapons manufactured in places like China, Israel, South Korea, and not available in US gunstores. Others are things like RPG launchers, the grenades themselves, military assault weapons (as in full auto, or selectable dual mode) in use by Chinese and Russian military. In other words, the Mexican government have ONLY submitted weapons to BATF for tracing that either have traceable markings (serial numbers) or were otherwise possibly available on the open US market. ALL weapons not submitted were obviously NOT from the US gun marketing industry.

In other words, the vast majority of the firearms in use in Mexico's recent violence (totalling 83% of those seized) could in no way have come from US gunstores, or have been smuggled southward across the border into Mexico. This, based on BATF numbers as researched by Fox News.

SO now, the "statistics and resources" issues have been dealt with. what say ye now? It is plain the issue of "the flood of weapons smuggled across the border into Mexico from US gunstores" simply does not exist.

That all on the table, it IS plain the laws already existing need to be enforced... and Obama was quoted as saying "there is no need for an assault weapons ban, as we already have laws on the books to make this sort of traffic illegal. They are sufficient".

Tell me the Big O is being honest and upright....... he's talking out of both sides of his mouth on this one. Saying there is no need, then getting us into a burdensome and unconstitutional international treaty that will seriously impact our constitutional rights..... if he continues in his crass disregard for our rights and security, there WILL be consequences.... and I'll leave the details to your own imagination what those might be and how they might be implemented.