Terminal Ballistics

[Cerberus Group]

Was pointed to a podcast from Primary and Secondary a few weeks ago about terminal ballistics.

The panel consists of top notch people, not those that shoot jell-o, but those who have been there and have it done to them along with their study on the matter based on facts, not theory.

On the panel are 2 people that I know; that being Bill Blowers of Tap-Rack Tactical, who I'm hosting in March for a 2 day pistol course. The other is Dr. Gary Roberts, which at this time is on the forefront of ballistic testing, which I've attended 2 of his seminars, and had a chance to sit down with and compare the results of ballistics I've seen in my own study during autopsies.

Some might not like the content or comments on beloved calibers or actual make/model of firearms, but it is again based on fact not theory.

It's lengthy, a bit over 3 hrs., but then again what kind of time investment is this worth.

P&S ModCast 125 - Terminal Ballistics

Primary & Secondary ModCast<br>Formerly known as Sitrep 8 - Terminal Ballistics released July 2016.<br>Host: Matt Landfair<br>Panel:<br>Dr. Gary Roberts<br>Roland aka Chuck Pressburg<br>Mike H<br>Chuck Haggard<br>Bill Blowers<br>J. L. Bourne<br>Matt Meckley<br>Episode sponsors:<br>Forge Tactical...

player.fm

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[User 1234]

Thanks, will download it.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Was pointed to a podcast from Primary and Secondary a few weeks ago about terminal ballistics.

The panel consists of top notch people, not those that shoot jell-o, but those who have been there and have it done to them along with their study on the matter based on facts, not theory.

On the panel are 2 people that I know; that being Bill Blowers of Tap-Rack Tactical, who I'm hosting in March for a 2 day pistol course. The other is Dr. Gary Roberts, which at this time is on the forefront of ballistic testing, which I've attended 2 of his seminars, and had a chance to sit down with and compare the results of ballistics I've seen in my own study during autopsies.

Some might not like the content or comments on beloved calibers or actual make/model of firearms, but it is again based on fact not theory.

It's lengthy, a bit over 3 hrs., but then again what kind of time investment is this worth.

P&S ModCast 125 - Terminal Ballistics

Primary & Secondary ModCast<br>Formerly known as Sitrep 8 - Terminal Ballistics released July 2016.<br>Host: Matt Landfair<br>Panel:<br>Dr. Gary Roberts<br>Roland aka Chuck Pressburg<br>Mike H<br>Chuck Haggard<br>Bill Blowers<br>J. L. Bourne<br>Matt Meckley<br>Episode sponsors:<br>Forge Tactical...

player.fm

So without clicking this means the FBI is going back to the 3" barrel 357 Magnum shooting 125 grainers?

 

[2506]

I'd love to see S&W start making the 3" Model 13 or 65 again WITHOUT the Hillary hole. I'd buy one.

 

[titsonritz]

#1 buck

 

[Cerberus Group]

So without clicking this means the FBI is going back to the 3" barrel 357 Magnum shooting 125 grainers?

Uh.....no. There is so much more that figures into such things...beyond the FBI.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Uh.....no. There is so much more that figures into such things...beyond the FBI.

A simple click reveals all? Golly!

 

[Geardo]

TLDR? Will listen at work on Monday but whats the gist re: 5.56, .308,9mm, fuddyfive?

 

[Cerberus Group]

It delves into fact vs fiction vs all the 'net crap that comes up about the subject.

Goes into pistol vs rifle vs shotgun. Goes over certain rounds and firearms, what they were designed to do and why they succeed or fail.

It is very comprehensive. Talks about important parts of ballistics that aren't part of discussions on here and across the net. Barrier blind, velocity falicy, shock and lots of other garbage.

It's about the facts of terminal ballistics in humans, not theories or marketing crap.

Yes @Certaindeaf , a simple click and some note taking are in order.

I had to listen to it a few times...and compare it to my notes and study of about 15 years ago....

Ballistic Research - A very short non-definitive study

I was fortunate in my LE career to be forensic trained. In that time I attended many autopsies, and was able to assist with many. What started my ballistic research...One time I was waiting for a victim of case I was working to be done, but there was a gunshot victim from another agency before...

www.northwestfirearms.com

 

[User 1234]

I listened to it on a flight this weekend. My sketchy recollection is the following:

ARs make great home defense weapons because the 5.56 will not over penetrate as heavier handgun rounds will do.

M855 was designed for longer barrels, specifically the SAW and M16A2, to penetrate Soviet personal body armor. When the ammo is used in shorter barrels it loses its effectiveness.
Hydrostatic shock is not a real consideration.

Bullet placement is not only a matter of good shot placement, e.g. hitting the chest, but a matter of luck because a tenth of an inch can make the difference between a quick bleed out and minutes of fighting. Keep shooting until the threat is eliminated.
The doctor on the program has seen multiple patients whose foreheads deflected 380 and in a few situations 45 ACP.

People who are around vehicles often, such as highway patrol, should consider using ammunition with additional penetration capabilities.

For the vast majority of carriers, ammunition which will penetrate 12-18" is best.
10% gelatin is an accurate estimation of performance in human torsos because real world incidents have been replicated (same
gun same ammo, same distance) using 10% gelatin and the results were similar to what happened to the criminal in the real incident.

Handguns are much more difficult to shoot competently than long guns, and therefore the majority of training time should be dedicated to handguns even for military members whose primary weapon is a rifle.

 

[Geardo]

I listened to it on a flight this weekend. My sketchy recollection is the following:

ARs make great home defense weapons because the 5.56 will not over penetrate as heavier handgun rounds will do.

M855 was designed for longer barrels, specifically the SAW and M16A2, to penetrate Soviet personal body armor. When the ammo is used in shorter barrels it loses its effectiveness.
Hydrostatic shock is not a real consideration.

Bullet placement is not only a matter of good shot placement, e.g. hitting the chest, but a matter of luck because a tenth of an inch can make the difference between a quick bleed out and minutes of fighting. Keep shooting until the threat is eliminated.
The doctor on the program has seen multiple patients whose foreheads deflected 380 and in a few situations 45 ACP.

People who are around vehicles often, such as highway patrol, should consider using ammunition with additional penetration capabilities.

For the vast majority of carriers, ammunition which will penetrate 12-18" is best.
10% gelatin is an accurate estimation of performance in human torsos because real world incidents have been replicated (same
gun same ammo, same distance) using 10% gelatin and the results were similar to what happened to the criminal in the real incident.

Handguns are much more difficult to shoot competently than long guns, and therefore the majority of training time should be dedicated to handguns even for military members whose primary weapon is a rifle.

You nailed the major points.

Some additional ones.

Don't shoot 147 grain ammo from an HK SD model.

Use ammo your. 380 will cycle 100% and penetrates enough per the FBI spec. this is probably high quality FMJ, or something loaded with an XTP bullet.

Consider buying duplicates of your carry gun, one to carry, one to practice with, and a spare. I actually took a step towards this yesterday and got an identical p2000 purely for training.

Focus on pistol shooting in training, because the skills in pistol shooting will help your rifle shooting. I intend to focus more on pistol work now when I go to the range.

Backyard Jello shooters using uncalibrated cheap gel are doing us a disservice. The results are probably not accurate.

Shot placement is key, and putting it in someones snot locker is really the only way to stop a fight 100% of the time.

Don't worry too much about ammo, especially in a HD rifle, due to the distances and the amount of times you will probably shoot someone. This was argues back and forth about instances where the bad guy was behind cover and the home owner was not able to hit them. I had been considering switching to a barrier blind load for HD for a while due to my new living location, and I think this will push me over the edge on that.

 

[Stomper]

Handguns shoot holes INTO people, rifles shoot THROUGH people, and shotguns TEAR CHUNKS OFF from people.


The end.

 

[User 1234]

The doctor on the podcast also discussed his experience treating people for shotgun wounds. His point was that birdshot or similar loads don't penetrate past the skin and while they cause visually disturbing surface damage they do not reach any arteries or organs to stop the fight. He recommended number 1 buck.

 

[Certaindeaf]

The doctor on the podcast also discussed his experience treating people for shotgun wounds. His point was that birdshot or similar loads don't penetrate past the skin and while they cause visually disturbing surface damage they do not reach any arteries or organs to stop the fight. He recommended number 1 buck.

When I appendix carry my shotgun they call me fourpod.

 

[bbbass]

The doctor on the podcast also discussed his experience treating people for shotgun wounds. His point was that birdshot or similar loads don't penetrate past the skin and while they cause visually disturbing surface damage they do not reach any arteries or organs to stop the fight. He recommended number 1 buck.

Visually disturbing would be a birdshot blast from 4'... Ouch.

I wonder what that Texas church shooter used... one victim fell down right away and the other leaned back only to die later.

 

[User 1234]

When I appendix carry my shotgun they call me fourpod.

I was at a ceremony at an overseas camp a while back, and there were two majors who hated each other. One tried to insult the other's waistline by yelling in front of the crowd: "your third button down on your shirt is the hardest working piece of equipment on this base" to which the target replied over the microphone: "you're right that it is a button, but it is the third one down on my pants."