Taurus Judges?

[deen_ad]

Whether or not a person "enjoys the experience" of being shot with a particular caliber...has nothing to do with whether or not that caliber is an effective choice for self-defense.

Please provide a link to your data that a Judge loaded with the PDX1 rounds is not "an effective choice for self-defense".

 

[ZachS]

Please provide a link to your data that a Judge loaded with the PDX1 rounds is not "an effective choice for self-defense".

This argument convinces me that the Judge isn't an effective self-defense tool with any .410 round...

 

[Gunner3456]

This argument convinces me that the Judge isn't an effective self-defense tool with any .410 round...

It should convince anyone, but then...

One thing he didn't mention. Because the .410 shell is so very danged long, the cylinder is necessarily very long. Now, when you load it with the 45 LC cartridge, there is one heck of a long "jump" before the bullet contacts and enters the barrel. This doesn't make for a good .45 LC platform either.

It is the worst of both worlds, and extremely large and heavy for what little good it can do. It's a gimmick for which the major quality manufacturers haven't taken the bait.

 

[CEF1959]

This argument convinces me that the Judge isn't an effective self-defense tool with any .410 round...

Gotta love the Box of Truth. At least they said it was well-made.

This gun is definitely not my cup of tea. But maybe it's effectiveness as a self-defense tool depends on what you're trying to accomplish. The .410 loads may be ineffective as a one-shot-killer against a hopped up BG, but not every defense tool has to have one-shot lethality to be useful to someone. Think of it as pepper spray or Taser on steroids. Didn't farmers use to load shotguns with rock salt? And as Dan-Dee points out above, for some people, the mere fact that you're bound to actually HIT something can provide some people with a measure of comfort.

But why would anyone use this for .45 LC, when there are so many good revolvers in that caliber that are about the same size?

 

[soberups]

Gotta love the Box of Truth. At least they said it was well-made.

This gun is definitely not my cup of tea. But maybe it's effectiveness as a self-defense tool depends on what you're trying to accomplish. The .410 loads may be ineffective as a one-shot-killer against a hopped up BG, but not every defense tool has to have one-shot lethality to be useful to someone. Think of it as pepper spray or Taser on steroids.

What I am trying to accomplish is to save my life and my family's life.

If that "hopped up bad guy" has a weapon of his own and all I do is hit him with a few pellets, my family and I are in trouble.

Pepper spray and Tasers are non-lethal. The Judge is lethal...but if I fail to incapacitate the hopped up badguy and he is able to take the gun away from me, now he has the lethal weapon.

A person who intends to rely on a firearm for self-defense needs to use the most effective caliber that they are capable of carrying and accurately firing. In my opinion, intentionally using a weaker cartridge in the hopes of only wounding or deterring an assailant is the wrong mindset to have. Using a .410 shot load so that I can "feel better" about my chances of hitting my assailant is also the wrong mindset to have.

 

[soberups]

Please provide a link to your data that a Judge loaded with the PDX1 rounds is not "an effective choice for self-defense".

The PDX1 round is nothing more than a 3" .410 buckshot round, with the pellets flattened into "defense disks" and the additional space occupied by 12 BB's.

The pellets weigh in at around 65 grains each and are moving along at around 1000 FPS or so. In other words...each pellet is the rough equivalent of getting hit with a hot loaded .32 ACP FMJ round.

So assuming that the entire payload strikes your assailant in the center-of-mass....when you drop the hammer on a PDX1 round its pretty much the same as hitting him 3 times with a Kel-Tec P32 or any other .32 ACP pistol. You are also splattering him with some BB's, which lack the mass to achieve any meaningful penetration.

Lethal? Yes. Effective? Not so much. On paper at least, the ballistics of this load (in terms of muzzle energy) approach those of the .45 Colt, but energy isnt everything. None of those little projectiles can borrow mass from one another, so none of them can penetrate well enough.

Stand 10 feet from me and let me throw a golf ball as hard as I can into your forehead. Its going to hurt like **** and make a huge welt.

Now instead of a golf ball, let me fill my hand up with an equivalent weight of pea gravel, and repeat the experiment. It wont hurt nearly as much even though you are being hit with the same total mass at the same velocity.

 

[toobigtofail]

Think Taurus markets the gun as a defensive weapon for a car. In that capacity, a small bore shotgun blast of birdshot to a BG carjacker might be just what the doctor ordered. Also, that kind of load doesn't pose so much danger to people behind the BG.

 

[ZachS]

Gotta love the Box of Truth. At least they said it was well-made.

This gun is definitely not my cup of tea. But maybe it's effectiveness as a self-defense tool depends on what you're trying to accomplish. The .410 loads may be ineffective as a one-shot-killer against a hopped up BG, but not every defense tool has to have one-shot lethality to be useful to someone. Think of it as pepper spray or Taser on steroids. Didn't farmers use to load shotguns with rock salt? And as Dan-Dee points out above, for some people, the mere fact that you're bound to actually HIT something can provide some people with a measure of comfort.

But why would anyone use this for .45 LC, when there are so many good revolvers in that caliber that are about the same size?

It doesn't look like the patterns are big enough to make a hit anything like a certainty... Although THINKING you're bound to hit your target, I'm sure, is plenty comforting.

 

[CEF1959]

It doesn't look like the patterns are big enough to make a hit anything like a certainty... Although THINKING you're bound to hit your target, I'm sure, is plenty comforting.

Hehe. Well, you DO have to point the thing at the BG.

Just because it's not your (or my) choice of weapon doesn't mean it's not a reasonable choice for someone else. This discussion gets repeated a lot around here regarding small caliber handguns. Something you are comfortable with is always better than nothing at all. I would think that the mere fact a BG has been shot, even if the wounds were not life-threatening, would be enough to send many skedaddling for the door, looking for easier prey. The psychological factor is big in any skirmish.

As the US Postal Service says, "To each his zone."

 

[Just Jim]

You choose your gun and you take your chances. Hope it all works out for you.

jj

 

[Redcap]

Hehe. Well, you DO have to point the thing at the BG.

Just because it's not your (or my) choice of weapon doesn't mean it's not a reasonable choice for someone else. This discussion gets repeated a lot around here regarding small caliber handguns. Something you are comfortable with is always better than nothing at all. I would think that the mere fact a BG has been shot, even if the wounds were not life-threatening, would be enough to send many skedaddling for the door, looking for easier prey. The psychological factor is big in any skirmish.

As the US Postal Service says, "To each his zone."

Well, I'll attempt to put this in perspective.

I was shot three times in the torso at close range with a 9mm by an urban youth in Tacoma some years ago. Two of the hits were to the stomach, the other was just under my right lung. It didn't stop me from shattering his eyesocket and crushing his hand to disarm him, then subsequently making him very unconscious with the heel of my boot. I was also standing until the ambulance and police arrived, never lost consciousness until put under at the hospital.

This "psychological factor" you are counting on is a pretty damn big gamble. Use a big enough round and correct shot placement to neutralize the threat.

 

[bullmack]

It's a great snake gun but self defense -nah!

 

[soberups]

Just because it's not your (or my) choice of weapon doesn't mean it's not a reasonable choice for someone else. This discussion gets repeated a lot around here regarding small caliber handguns. Something you are comfortable with is always better than nothing at all....

Small caliber handguns at least have the advantage of being lightweight and easy to conceal. Depending upon circumstances and mode of dress, they may be the only viable alternative to being completely unarmed.

The Judge is neither lightweight or concealable. It is every bit as big and heavy as a comparable 4", 6-shot revolver chambered in .38+P/.357/.44/.45 yet when loaded with five .410 shells it doesnt even come close to what those calibers offer in terms of ballistics and stopping power.

 

[CEF1959]

Well, I'll attempt to put this in perspective.

I was shot three times in the torso at close range with a 9mm by an urban youth in Tacoma some years ago. Two of the hits were to the stomach, the other was just under my right lung. It didn't stop me from shattering his eyesocket and crushing his hand to disarm him, then subsequently making him very unconscious with the heel of my boot. I was also standing until the ambulance and police arrived, never lost consciousness until put under at the hospital.

So your point is that 9mm is an inadequate defense round? Hmm.

The question here isn't whether the Judge is a great defensive handgun for everyone; the question is whether it's just plain stupid for anyone to own one. I'm not a Judge fan, but I'm not ready to make so presumptuous a claim about the needs of my fellow gun owners.

 

[Redcap]

So your point is that 9mm is an inadequate defense round? Hmm.

The question here isn't whether the Judge is a great defensive handgun for everyone; the question is whether it's just plain stupid for anyone to own one. I'm not a Judge fan, but I'm not ready to make so presumptuous a claim about the needs of my fellow gun owners.

No, my point is that if a 9mm wouldn't reliably put someone's target down, why in the **** would you even consider using a .410 for that purpose.

A 9mm IS an adequate defense round, but shot placement is still vital and important.

Using a Judge for self-defense seems pointless. There are smaller .45LC revolvers, if that is the cartriage you want to use. The .410 aspect is fine for snakes and the like, but fairly asinine for defense.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

No, my point is that if a 9mm wouldn't reliably put someone's target down, why in the **** would you even consider using a .410 for that purpose.

A 9mm IS an adequate defense round, but shot placement is still vital and important.

Using a Judge for self-defense seems pointless. There are smaller .45LC revolvers, if that is the cartriage you want to use. The .410 aspect is fine for snakes and the like, but fairly asinine for defense.

It's just as easy to argue that no handgun round is adequate for self defense.
3 rounds of 9mm? That's nothing.

Remarkably, Palmer had taken 22 hits from Soulis' .40-caliber Glock, 17 of which had hit center mass. Despite the fact that the weapon had been loaded with Ranger SXTs—considered by many to be one of the best man-stoppers available—Palmer lived for more than four minutes after the last shot was fired. His autopsy revealed nothing more than a small amount of alcohol in his bloodstream.

<broken link removed>

On the other hand, people have been killed with a single 22lr bullet.

Patsy Long, 34, of Deepwater, died after being shot in the chest with a .22-caliber handgun on Saturday. Her husband, Ronald Long, fired the shot from the inside of their home after several unsuccessful efforts to punch a hole through the exterior wall using other means.

Henry County sheriff's deputies said the woman was hit by the second of two shots fired by her husband.

<broken link removed>

 

[DERGLOCKINMEISTER]

You use what you want and so will each of us . If you were the foremost authority on this subject then your opinion would have validity . you aren't and it doesn't .

 

[soberups]

So your point is that 9mm is an inadequate defense round? Hmm.

The question here isn't whether the Judge is a great defensive handgun for everyone; the question is whether it's just plain stupid for anyone to own one. I'm not a Judge fan, but I'm not ready to make so presumptuous a claim about the needs of my fellow gun owners.

I dont think its "stupid" for anyone to own a Judge.

I can certainly see its merits as a "trail gun" that could be loaded with three or four .45 Colt rounds for bear or 2-legged predators, along with one or two 410 shot loads for snakes or the occasional grouse.

What I do think is "stupid"...is to rely on a .410 shotgun round fired from a handgun for personal/home defense when there are so many better choices available in a gun of comparable size.

 

[kerbyj]

I've owned one - past tense.

I had high hopes for it and was utterly disappointed with it.

In shooting .410 shotshells, I found that the spread even at 10 yards was so hopeless that it would even be unsuitable for shooting at squirrels, let alone an intruder. I suppose it has merits for killing rattlesnakes a few feet away, but that's about it.

Also, in shooting .45 Long Colt, something about it didn't quite "seem right".

As well, it is hardly a pocket pistol and though it's not huge, I personally didn't find the gun comfortable or very balanced.

Given the choice between a Judge and a small cheap .22 auto, I think I'd feel safer with the .22 even if I had to use an extra round or so.

 

[Gunner3456]

If I wanted a revolver, I'd far prefer a .357 mag for power to weight ratio. CCI makes nice .38/.357 shotshells for it for snakes. <broken link removed>

We live in snake country, just not around our place. We have some areas a few miles away which are notorious for them and we hunt them. I can kill a full sized rattlesnake with .22lr shotshells, or just shoot the danged thing with a regular .22.

I think people make too big of a deal with snakes. They can strike only 1/2 the length of their body, and they try to get away from you. You have to step on one to get bit, and by then it's a little late for "the judge." How many people are bitten by rattlesnakes in this whole country each year? Even then they rarely die. Dang, just grab a stick and kill it or leave it alone and it will crawl away.

I have a gun for BG's, not for snakes.