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Tannerite Allowed in USFS or BLM?

Discussion in 'Outdoor Shooting Areas' started by Grizzly_A, Jun 17, 2009.

  1. Grizzly_A

    Grizzly_A Portland Metro Area Member

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    Is Tannerite allowed on public lands?

    I read somewhere that it was only allowed on private land, so I'm looking for some more information.
     
  2. kirkcdl

    kirkcdl Roseburg,ORYGUN Member

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    The Umpqua NF Ranger has stated to me personally that he considers it to be fireworks,and "Not in MY forest".Your local Ranger may have a different opinion,but not likely...That said,they're spread pretty thin out there,so it's a crapshoot as to whether they'll hear it or not...
     
  3. buyamonkey

    buyamonkey West vancouver WA Member

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    I'm pretty sure you can only use it on Private land at least in washington

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=332-52-145

    There's a line in there that says you can't shoot explosives or incindary devices. I was kind of bummed when I found out about that awhile ago. I don't really know anyone who lives out far enough, and has enough land, that you can really have all the fun that is required when shooting explosives.

    You could always make a post offering free Stump Removal.:laugh:
     
  4. darkminstrel

    darkminstrel PDX Well-Known Member

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    A question about a product that has fallen through the cracks legally being fired in a public area is horrendously grey. Because Tannerite explodes into water vapor, has no incendiary capability in and of itself, but IS condisered an explosive the moment you mix it...

    Yeah. Tough one.
     
  5. Grizzly_A

    Grizzly_A Portland Metro Area Member

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    I guess I need to buy some acreage....or offer to work on stumps. :D


    I think the latter would get me into more trouble
     
  6. flask28

    flask28 Portland New Member

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    Great question Griz, I've been thinking about getting some of that, but had planned on taking it out to public lands. You saved me some grief!
     
  7. CEF1959

    CEF1959 Willamette Valley, Oregon New Member

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    I don't think using Tannerite is even legal in Oregon on private land. ORS 166.382 makes it a felony to possess a "destructive device," which is defined to include things like pipe bombs and fuel/fertilizer mixtures made up to explode when detonated. Tannerite seems to fit too.

    I know Tannerite is harmless until detonated with a rifle bullet, but when hit, it explodes and (in sufficient quantity) quite impressively. Black powder is harmless too until you confine it inside a pipe and light a fuse. Fuel oil and fertilizer are harmless and legal until you detonate a mixture, in which case you have a bomb.

    I think it also qualifies as unlawful fireworks under ORS 480.110-.120.
     
  8. darkminstrel

    darkminstrel PDX Well-Known Member

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    I think, though, that since Tannerite is not comprised of any regulated materials that it falls into a grey area.
     
  9. BillM

    BillM Amity OR Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Interesting that the distributor is in Oregon, and says it's legal.


    http://www.tannerite.com/index.html


    Re: Oregon and explosives/destructive devices. Met a young man a
    couple of years ago that got arrested and convicted of "manufacturing
    an explosive device" Felony conviction. The device? Dry ice in a
    2 liter Pepsi bottle. I'm guessing he had a really crappy lawyer.
     
  10. darkminstrel

    darkminstrel PDX Well-Known Member

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    Legal to own and legal to use are two separate issues. You can have tannerite and run around Portland with it...as long as the two compounds are separate. You can't transport it in the mixed state.
     
  11. Grizzly_A

    Grizzly_A Portland Metro Area Member

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    In talking with the Tannerite guy today at the gun show, on Aug 29th they are having a machine gun shoot in Brown's camp gravel pit. They will have exploding targets (tannerite) there as well. I asked this specific question whether it was legal to use on public lands, since it's going to be in use at the gravel pit.

    He said yes (of course...he's the sales guy) and said it's not considered a firework, etc. He also said that many cops/FSLEO don't know what the laws are regarding exploding targets.

    CEF1959 - both of the examples you listed are incendiary. They make sparks or have a flammable component to them.

    Tannerite detonates into a water vapor and does not have a fuse nor does it have any particles which could start a fire.


    ORS 480.110 1A - "...there is no visible flame during discharge, there is no flaming or smoldering of any of the components or parts of the device after discharge, and the device does not produce sufficient heat to readily ignite combustible materials upon which the device may be placed. The sale and use of such devices shall be permitted at all times."

    I'm confident it's legal to own and use on rural private property with acreage in Oregon.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2009
  12. pdx1

    pdx1 Portland Area Active Member

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    I was camping July 4th weekend near Goose Lake.
    On public property, setting off these targets.
    A Department of Forestry employee(ranger)
    was passing and pulled over, spoke with me and my brother.
    He said that he had heard the noise and wanted to make sure it was not fireworks.
    Told him what it was and he said there were no laws against using it
    "As long as it isn't able to start fires."
    Stayed for about 10 minutes and chatted then told us to be careful and took off.

    Lucky maybe??
     
  13. CEF1959

    CEF1959 Willamette Valley, Oregon New Member

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    You are quoting the definition of "fireworks" but you aren't reading the whole thing. Read it again, and you'll see that the part you are quoting is exempting a type of device that doesn't have anything to do with Tannerite. In point of fact, none of the exemptions from the definition of "fireworks" in ORS 480.110 applies to Tannerite.

    And even if it weren't "fireworks" it would still be a destructive device, which is much more serious anyway. Using or possessing unlawful fireworks is just a violation (non-criminal), although it can get you a $500 fine from the fire marshall too. But possessing an illegal "destructive device" is a Class B felony, meaning jail time and a lifetime ban on firearms possession.

    The fact that Tannerite not incendiary is irrelevant for either the definition of "fireworks" or the definition of "destructive device." The fact that Tannerite explodes is what makes it fit those definitions. The fact that it can't start a fire isn't relevant for purposes of the statute, though that's what any park ranger is going to be concerned with.

    The people saying it's "perfectly legal" aren't reading the statutes.
     
  14. darkminstrel

    darkminstrel PDX Well-Known Member

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    I think this is the sticking point. The law doesn't have any provisions directly applicable to Tannerite. In that case it would be up to a judge to determine how to classify it. If you were prosecuted for its use you'd have to build an incredibly convincing defense to win over a hard-line judge.
     
  15. Grizzly_A

    Grizzly_A Portland Metro Area Member

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    I must not be reading the same statutes that you are.
    You say that the definitions of exempted fireworks don't apply to Tannerite. They also don't apply to Tannerite under what is defined as a firework. So it's between what is defined and what is not defined.
    Like darkminstrel said...it's a grey area.

    In reading ORS 166.382, the components in Tannerite are not explosive, incendiary, or poison gas. And it doesn't fall into the devices defined in the statute. As since both parts of Tannerite are not explosive.

    Again, as Dark Minstrel says, it's neither defined or undefined so it falls into that grey area.

    I think the reason why in all advertising it is listed as a reactive target, and they are very careful to keep it that way.
     
  16. Herschel Henderly

    Herschel Henderly Eugene, OR New Member

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    As a retired Ranger for the Corps of Engineers, I guarantee that the officer in the field will regard anything that goes "boom" to be either fireworks or explosives (depending on the officer and the size of the boom). You may argue the point, but he's going to let the judge decide. You had best be able to afford the fine or a good lawyer. Or both.
     
  17. Grizzly_A

    Grizzly_A Portland Metro Area Member

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    I'd agree with that. I don't want to assume that the LEO knows the laws, or will listen to me telling him the finer points of the oregon statues. That's why I'd keep it on private land.


    No offense directed at you of course. :)
     
  18. Herschel Henderly

    Herschel Henderly Eugene, OR New Member

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    No offense taken.

    Keep in mind that most public land in Oregon is Federal - BLM, USFS, NPS or COE. If you deal with an officer from one of those agencies, he will be enforcing Federal regulations, not state law. Although the misdemeanor regs for each agency differ slightly, we can take the COE example as typical. Title 36, U.S. Code, section 327.13b states "Possession of explosives or explosive devices of any kind, including fireworks and other pyrotechnics, is prohibited without written permission of the District Commander". Thus the fine points of Oregon law are irrelevant on Federal lands (unless you are nabbed by the OSP or a Sheriff's deputy) and the phrase "explosive devices of any kind" means that if it goes "boom" it's illegal.

    Also consider that officers of all jurisdictions hear reasons, excuses and arguments daily. If you argue and win, lucky you. But it's not the way to bet.
     
  19. Grizzly_A

    Grizzly_A Portland Metro Area Member

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    Good point, forgot that finer point of federal laws superceding state.

    I'm not one to argue...just lot's of "yes sir", and "I understand sir, so sorry."
    :D
     
  20. timbernet

    timbernet Boring, Oregon Member

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    There is always the safe reactive target route: sparkling water/club soda... Bought a 6-pack for $1.39:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBIBHtThIeM

    It also "explodes" into water -- but won't likely get you into any trouble ;)

    (I like water vs. soda because it isn't sticky and is cheap)