Talked my wife out of carrying concealed

[Blitzkrieg]

Yes, lol.

You'd be surprised at what eye-witness acounts of gunmen of the Old West report, rather than what the "penny dreadful" novels about them sensationalized. Wild Bill was a showman, and much of the trick-shooting that the travelling shows performed was under fairly tightly-controlled conditions, long after the danger of gunfights and Indian battles were largely gone.

Most gunfights in the Old West were probably under the influence of alcohol, from knife distance. I read a report of one where both individuals unloaded their revolvers at a distance of 6-8 feet, neither one hit anything, and they went back to drinking together afterward.

Cowboys carried pistols to protect themsevles from horses and cattle run amok, wild critters, and Indian attacks. A pistol cost about a month's salary, and people didn't spend much time on target practice because ammunition cost too much. They had no clue about the ergonomics of stable shooting positions, except for a few Army sharpshooters, who had nothing like the modern science of shooting to support thier practice.

Could some of them make extremely difficult shots? Sure. I've seen a guy in Oregon who can out-shoot me with his pistol upside-down, too. My NRA pistol instructor was re-certifying him to be an instructor, and basically told everyone else in the class- "He can shoot anything, any weird ole way. Don't pay attention to him, he's been shooting 'wrong' so long he got good at it, but you won't have the same success he does unless you put in 40 years of shooting all messed up too. If you shoot the way we tell you to, you'll be approaching his accuracy in months or a handful of years, depending on how much you shoot."

Besides, you seem to be missing the point here. "Training" is both formal and informal. Informal training consists of experience under uncontrolled conditions. Formal training is experience under controlled conditions. From the standpoint of developing habits and muscle memory, there's little difference, except that formal training has a better signal-to-noise ratio and compresses the amount of experience into a shorter time frame, which has the benefit of being quicker, and by reinforcing on a shorter timeline, is better maintained than the lessons of random experience spread out over a long period of time.

It makes me laugh when 'old timers' are so convinced they have nothing to learn from anybody. There's a saying that a wise man can learn something from anybody; even a fool. Even if it's simply how to avoid being a fool. Actively engaging in training can cause you to notice something and learn from it, even if it's not what the instructor intended you to learn, and the more advanced you are, the more likely this is to be the case, but the exercise of actually engaging in critical thought during the practice is the key point. I always tell people "practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfection." Lacking perfection in practice, "mindful practice" makes improvements.

Nothing and I mean nothing can replace natural ability.. did I say it could not be enhanced? No, but I've seen one heck of a lot of "instructors" I wouldn't give the time of day to, because what they teach is not right as far as real world combat. The emphasis is too heavy on legality and not enough on the fog of war and the fear of a real world shoot. Until you've stared down a pack of crazy meth head or illegal alien rape packs seeking to kill or beat you near to death so they can get at your women, you have no idea how you will react.. ( I have) and training is not going to save you if you don't have sand and ability to react correctly under stress. Only natural ability and experience can really help you there. I also disagree with you about many Old West gunmen. you can find all sorts of comedy stories, and also lots of real nasty hoe downs where men died fast. And BTW some men can hold their booze and still shoot straight (not advocating, just saying)

I teach JKD BTW and I have only seen maybe 3 people of all I have taught who could actually pull it off in a combat flow on the street. Of course I had to be trained myself, but I was a natural who from age 8 was using some of these techniques, never having been taught them

 

[OregonPlinker]

My wife carrys in her purse. She doesnt practice all the time but she is smart and a good shot. She often walks from her car a ways to and from work in the dark with lots of transients and such. Multiple attempted kidnappings and rapes in the area monthly. She had her chl for a while before she started packing. One morning she had a guy follow her acting all weird and too close for comfort. She did an about face and walked back by him (kind of a slow motion juke move)and went into a store. The guy was standing outside the store when she came out. She asked him if she could help him with something in that tone only a angry woman can present and he just wondered off. When she told me about it I asked her if she would have handled it differently if she had a gun? She said no, but I sure would have felt better. She has a 5 shot 38 in her purse all the time now. And has for a year and a half. I trust her to not shoot herself in the foot and to use good judgement if a situation arises. I feel better too. She has no formal training. I taught her to shoot... She took the class with one of my friends and its her right to carry.

Even if I didnt trust her I wouldnt attempt to talk her out of carrying. I do encourage her to take classes and such but it wont happen. Women often get turned off by men in gun shops and auto parts stores cause men assume they are dumb or incompetent. Even though they try to be nice, chicks still feel this way from my experience... They arent going to be belittled by some jerk to learn about firearms proficiency. lol. I told my wife if shes in fear for her well being, warn them to leave the area that you are armed, If they come within 20 feet after you have warned them... Give'em 2 in the chest. Heres your gun...

 

[Thebastidge]

would his name be chuck?

LOL. Indeed it is.

 

[Thebastidge]

Even if I didnt trust her I wouldnt attempt to talk her out of carrying. I do encourage her to take classes and such but it wont happen. Women often get turned off by men in gun shops and auto parts stores cause men assume they are dumb or incompetent. Even though they try to be nice, chicks still feel this way from my experience... They arent going to be belittled by some jerk to learn about firearms proficiency. lol. I told my wife if shes in fear for her well being, warn them to leave the area that you are armed, If they come within 20 feet after you have warned them... Give'em 2 in the chest. Heres your gun...

Find a women-only class taught by a female instructor and try to talk her into it.

 

[Thebastidge]

Nothing and I mean nothing can replace natural ability.. did I say it could not be enhanced? No, but I've seen one heck of a lot of "instructors" I wouldn't give the time of day to, because what they teach is not right as far as real world combat. The emphasis is too heavy on legality and not enough on the fog of war and the fear of a real world shoot. Until you've stared down a pack of crazy meth head or illegal alien rape packs seeking to kill or beat you near to death so they can get at your women, you have no idea how you will react.. ( I have) and training is not going to save you if you don't have sand and ability to react correctly under stress. Only natural ability and experience can really help you there. I also disagree with you about many Old West gunmen. you can find all sorts of comedy stories, and also lots of real nasty hoe downs where men died fast. And BTW some men can hold their booze and still shoot straight (not advocating, just saying)

I teach JKD BTW and I have only seen maybe 3 people of all I have taught who could actually pull it off in a combat flow on the street. Of course I had to be trained myself, but I was a natural who from age 8 was using some of these techniques, never having been taught them

OK. You stick with your Old West mythology and I'll go with science and replicable results. You still don't get it- training IS experience. Under controlled conditions. You sound like the type who teaches someone to swim by dropping them off the end of the dock into water over their head. That'll work. Maybe 10% of the time. 80% of the time, it'll retard their progress, make them afraid of the subject (and you) and 10% of the time it'll get them killed.

But hey, the rest who might've learned aren't worth your time because they don't have the native ability and courage, right?

I can agree with you on some of your points, but you sure seem to like to deal in absolutes. I won't disagree with you about some instructors not being worth the time, but it all depends on what you're trying to get out of it. For most people the legality of it is indeed the most important part, because the vast majority of people owning a gun are going to find relatively FEW circumstances where a shoot is legally justified (thank goodness), and LOTS of opportunity to get themselves in trouble.

The way scientific instruction goes, is something like this:

Identify the task to be taught.
Break it down into essential sequences of actions.
Teach the sequences of action in discrete chunks that allow the student to master the mechanics
String the sequences together with a theory of how and why it works.
Teach the context in which the task is necessary
Evaluate competency at the overall task under realistic conditions and remediate the essential sequences with drills as necessary.

Wax on, Wax off, Daniel-san.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

OK. You stick with your Old West mythology and I'll go with science and replicable results. You still don't get it- training IS experience. Under controlled conditions. You sound like the type who teaches someone to swim by dropping them off the end of the dock into water over their head. That'll work. Maybe 10% of the time. 80% of the time, it'll retard their progress, make them afraid of the subject (and you) and 10% of the time it'll get them killed.

But hey, the rest who might've learned aren't worth your time because they don't have the native ability and courage, right?

I can agree with you on some of your points, but you sure seem to like to deal in absolutes. I won't disagree with you about some instructors not being worth the time, but it all depends on what you're trying to get out of it. For most people the legality of it is indeed the most important part, because the vast majority of people owning a gun are going to find relatively FEW circumstances where a shoot is legally justified (thank goodness), and LOTS of opportunity to get themselves in trouble.

The way scientific instruction goes, is something like this:

Identify the task to be taught.
Break it down into essential sequences of actions.
Teach the sequences of action in discrete chunks that allow the student to master the mechanics
String the sequences together with a theory of how and why it works.
Teach the context in which the task is necessary
Evaluate competency at the overall task under realistic conditions and remediate the essential sequences with drills as necessary.

Wax on, Wax off, Daniel-san.

OK pal, how many times have you drawn on rape packs and individual attackers?

 

[Kevatc]

A couple of points from someone who trains a lot of women and not a few husband-wife pairs.

1. Something to ask yourself: " If the transient had broken in with a knife intent on raping my wife, do I want her with a gun or without?"

Remember that a lot more bad guys run like Hell at the sight of a firearm than get shot with them by good-guys. Not in favor of viewing the gun as a talisman, but merely having it out may make an otherwise serious attacker decide to run. Skill at the range may never even come into it, but her life may still be saved. As long as she's WILLING TO PULL THE TRIGGER (My main concern) I favor being armed.

2. Husbands should NEVER teach wives about guns, shooting, shooting improvement, or anything else related. It's both a waste of time and a very good way to make your wife never want to go shooting, sabotage her self-confidence and get into arguments. And no, it doesn't matter how supportive YOU think you're being.

If you go to the range together, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT, let her do her thing and you do yours. The only thing out of your mouth should be compliments with no suggestions. I've watched this stuff so many times and I have NEVER seen a case where a husband actually helped with his wife's shooting. So you're dead right that she should get training someplace else.

3. Just sit down with her, and schedule a class. How she does after that is up to her. But she may be lacking the self-confidence to go to training and so leaving it up to her may mean that even though she'd do fine, she'll never schedule it because of inertia. This is the one place you can actually help. I've a had a lot of husbands schedule their wives and never had a woman complain when the course was over, even though some started out very unmotivated and a bit frightened.

4. There are a lot of great options for purse carry. The idea is not to shoot from inside the purse. In fact, that's a LAST resort. Galco makes a whole line of purse-holsters. There are down-sides to purse carry, but there are downsides to lot's of on-body methods as well.

For me, I'd rather have my wife (even if she didn't shoot well) have the gun than not. My main concern would be her willingness to use it. If THAT isn't there, then forget it. Sell the gun and get her pepper spray or something she WILL be willing to use.

Can't argue with anything you said. And I've already decided that the best course when shooting with my wife is to stay quiet unless she asks me my opinion. It's tough though when nearly everything she does from the moment she draws the gun to pulling the trigger is part of why she can't put a round in a paper plate at 7-8 yards. When she does ask my advice now I keep it to sight alignment and trigger squeeze and not worry that her posture is canted, her weight is all on one leg, she's arching back, and blah, blah, blah. Now my advice goes like this: relax and just have fun, just align your sights and be kind to the trigger. However, about 7 times out of 10 she has a death grip on the pistol to hedge against recoil and mashes the trigger and then asks me where her bullets are going.

To those that have asked if I'd rather have her be armed and safe than unarmed and have nothing to fall back on .... I agree, it's better to be armed and safe. She did get some pepper spray. I guess I just need to flat out ask her if she feels confident that she could access her gun and shoot "minute of bad guy" from 2 - 25 or 30 feet. If she says yes she is confident then I will support her.

I am going to take some advice from Misterbill and get her enrolled in a class. Perhaps I'll take it with her but we will be at opposite ends of the firing line.

 

[Thebastidge]

OK pal, how many times have you drawn on rape packs and individual attackers?

Most of the physical confrontations I've had in my life were before I was legal to carry, or overseas where I wasn't legal to carry. I've had my arse kicked rather thoroughly a couple times. I've prevented myself from being seriously injured quite a few times. I've noted through experience that no matter what, you pretty much lose a little bit when you're forced to fight, you never come through it completely unscathed. Since I started every day carry, I've been mostly smart enough to avoid situations that would require it.

But the training I have been through and the experience I have achieved has been widely useful in a variety of situations. I've been first responder on accident scenes, and I've been under indirect fire more times than I could recount to you in the 5 years I've spent in Iraq and Afghanistan. If it weren't for the training I have received and put myself through, any one of a number of situations could have resulted in not knowing what to do and therefore doing the wrong thing. I've seen farm boys and metrosexual city slickers and girly-girls perform very well under stress that never would have been able to do the things they did, were it not for their training.

I'm not discounting your experiences, I'm just disagreeing with you in your assertion that the ONLY way to gain experience is the hard way. And your blustering bravado and cowboy mythology does make it harder to take you seriously. Respect has to go both ways. Pal.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Most of the physical confrontations I've had in my life were before I was legal to carry, or overseas where I wasn't legal to carry. I've had my arse kicked rather thoroughly a couple times. I've prevented myself from being seriously injured quite a few times. I've noted through experience that no matter what, you pretty much lose a little bit when you're forced to fight, you never come through it completely unscathed. Since I started every day carry, I've been mostly smart enough to avoid situations that would require it.

But the training I have been through and the experience I have achieved has been widely useful in a variety of situations. I've been first responder on accident scenes, and I've been under indirect fire more times than I could recount to you in the 5 years I've spent in Iraq and Afghanistan. If it weren't for the training I have received and put myself through, any one of a number of situations could have resulted in not knowing what to do and therefore doing the wrong thing. I've seen farm boys and metrosexual city slickers and girly-girls perform very well under stress that never would have been able to do the things they did, were it not for their training.

I'm not discounting your experiences, I'm just disagreeing with you in your assertion that the ONLY way to gain experience is the hard way. And your blustering bravado and cowboy mythology does make it harder to take you seriously. Respect has to go both ways. Pal.

I've been in about 25 self defense fights starting at age 8 and lost only one due to being sucker punched while wearing heavy biker gear I couldn't fight well in. I was 17 and my attacker was a crazy mexican guy who was a high school wrestler, brawler and I had taken out one of his vaunted pack (Larger white boy) who had called me out. I've never struck first but I will take abuse from no one

I've drawn guns 6 times to ward off genuine crazies, my gal has twice. I tell any and all that until you've seen the wolf you don't know how you will react, and training works only if you have the natural qualties that are required. I can say with certainty that most situations people will face on the street will be so close quarters that aiming is out of the question, and stress fire and weapon retention techniques are the best solution. None of this will work if one is not cool headed and can react under stress with minimal processing. Most bad guys can tell if you will actually use the weapon, and that takes sand

The Old West was not mythology, it was quite real and thousands of people died in gunfights and indian attack. You could learn a lot if you'd buy a few books on the subject. Some of us have even learned a lot from Apache techniques and tactics

 

[Kevatc]

I've been in about 25 self defense fights starting at age 8 and .....

25 huh?! I'm thinking you probably need to re-evaluate the company you keep instead of how well you can do an "ol west draw and stare down."

 

[Misterbill]

It's Blitz. If you believe him, he's had his gun out on "dozens" of occasions and never once had a police contact. Anyone who believes or takes seriously a word of what he says is kidding themselves.

 

[mjbskwim]

It's Blitz. If you believe him, he's had his gun out on "dozens" of occasions and never once had a police contact. Anyone who believes or takes seriously a word of what he says is kidding themselves.

I found I couldn't read his posts any more. Listened to too many like this over the years.
never was too impressed when fighters told their (inflated) stories

I think some need training and some may have a natural awareness,ability,that works fine.
It's like any other aspect of life. Some people make great mechanics and some make great salesmen. We all have different levels of awareness and logic.Along with capability of pulling the trigger.
My ex didn't have training,but she did have the ability to put bullets in someone who would attack her.Simple in some ways but not about personal defense.
I have a niece like this,too
Then there was my second wife.She told me she bought a Glock 23
"It's in my purse"
"Where? I found a pink (from make up) glock in the bottom of her purse.
I'm not real sure she would have used it either.Well she would have been shot with her own gun when she couldn't find it and the bad guy punched her.

My niece and my first ex where very capable of defending themselves without training,but that's not always the case.No two people are the same.
If the wife in question WOULD pull the trigger,I would say let her carry.
If she would hesitate for a second,then she probably shouldn't carry.
I like the idea that women will carry.Maybe we can eradicate some of the rapists and attackers

 

[Blitzkrieg]

25 huh?! I'm thinking you probably need to re-evaluate the company you keep instead of how well you can do an "ol west draw and stare down."

Walk a mile in my shoes.. this was Northern Cali and unless you lived it you have no clue

 

[Blitzkrieg]

It's Blitz. If you believe him, he's had his gun out on "dozens" of occasions and never once had a police contact. Anyone who believes or takes seriously a word of what he says is kidding themselves.

In the old west this post would get you into a shootout.. me? I fart in your general direction

 

[FortunateSon]

I've been in about 25 self defense fights starting at age 8 and lost only one due to being sucker punched while wearing heavy biker gear I couldn't fight well in. I was 17 and my attacker was a crazy mexican guy who was a high school wrestler, brawler and I had taken out one of his vaunted pack (Larger white boy) who had called me out. I've never struck first but I will take abuse from no one

I've drawn guns 6 times to ward off genuine crazies, my gal has twice. I tell any and all that until you've seen the wolf you don't know how you will react, and training works only if you have the natural qualties that are required. I can say with certainty that most situations people will face on the street will be so close quarters that aiming is out of the question, and stress fire and weapon retention techniques are the best solution. None of this will work if one is not cool headed and can react under stress with minimal processing. Most bad guys can tell if you will actually use the weapon, and that takes sand

The Old West was not mythology, it was quite real and thousands of people died in gunfights and indian attack. You could learn a lot if you'd buy a few books on the subject. Some of us have even learned a lot from Apache techniques and tactics

Seems as though you have been in the wrong place at the right time quite a few times. I wonder how many of these were when you were a minor, and likely didn't have a lot of choice, and how many occurred when you were an adult and was a result of your choices.

Just saying, seems like an awful lot of fights for someone who wasn't looking for one..........

 

[Kevatc]

Walk a mile in my shoes.. this was Northern Cali and unless you lived it you have no clue

Are you kidding??? Why would I want to walk a mile in your shoes let alone 7 feet for all the "fights" you've been in. Come on guy! Admit that you're embellishing just a little at least!

In the old west this post would get you into a shootout.. me? I fart in your general direction

Well, at least you're able to quote Monty Python. Or did you know you were quoting Python????

 

[Kevatc]

Then there was my second wife.She told me she bought a Glock 23
"It's in my purse"
"Where? I found a pink (from make up) glock in the bottom of her purse.
I'm not real sure she would have used it either.Well she would have been shot with her own gun when she couldn't find it and the bad guy punched her.

And this is a very good illustration of why I talked my wife out of carrying for the time being.

 

[charros93]

 

[davemata]

Ok, let me get this straight.

You don't want your wife to be able to protect herself?

You got a fat life insurance policy on her or something?

Or is it just that, guns and self defense "are for men?"

 

[Kevatc]

Ok, let me get this straight.

You don't want your wife to be able to protect herself?

You got a fat life insurance policy on her or something?

Or is it just that, guns and self defense "are for men?"

I am all for my wife being able to protect herself but there is a whole lot more to self defense than pulling a gun. We talked about awareness. She decided to get a pepper spray she can keep on a key chain. We talked about gouging eyes, kicking groins, scratching faces, and punching throats. We talked about how she can carry now on her body or in her purse. Because neither at this point in time are conducive to the whole notion of being able to access a firearm she and I decided that we need to find a purse and holster system that she can use and be much more at ease and confident with carrying. Despite this, at the current time she doesn't have the confidence or competence to access, present, discern a good shoot, and make an accurate self defense shot under pressure. She has a valid Oregon CCL but just because she jumped through the hoops doesn't mean she should carry if she has no ability to utilize a gun competently. Even at distances of 5 yards she can't call her shot. It's literally a crap shoot on where the bullet might go. Back her up to 8-10 yards and she can miss a human torso silhouette all together.

The life insurance comment is low class bovine scat.

Self defense doesn't have sex boundaries. I don't care if you are a mans man or womans woman if you can't confidently and competently use a tool to do a job then you either need to practice, get more training, or come up with a plan C.