Talked my wife out of carrying concealed

[Kevatc]

To start off let me be clear: both my wife and I believe that we are responsible for out own safety and not the police. It is up to us to be proactive for our safety and defense.

Here's the scenario: My wife likes to get to her office early and so she is there by herself often and hour or two before they open up for business. She had been at her office about an hour before a co-worker showed up. The co-worker rushed into the office and slammed and locked the door and was obviously distressed. As my wife looked up to see what was going on she said there was a transient at the door looking in and trying to get in. He moved so that he could see in the window better and stood there watching the two gals for several minutes before stumbling off. My wife said he was very drunk and could hardly stagger. The business happens to be in such a setting that transients tend to hang around the area. In fact, my wife could look out a window and watch transients use a small storage area in the back of an old gas station as "home".

Considering all this she asked me if I thought she should carry as she does have an Oregon carry permit.

I told her no. She has a Glock 26. She says it would be difficult to dress for carrying the gun on a belt. I told her a gun with a slide in a purse will allow her one shot and might likely get hung up on something preventing follow up shots if needed. She also doesn't practice even though I invite her out frequently. Often she is working but other times she just doesn't want to go. When we have shot together in the past I've tried to stress her a little by telling her to "hurry! that zombie pinko commie is getting closer" but she gets flustered. I've tried to work with her on presentation and accuracy but I she gets frustrated with me. So basically when we do shoot now I just let her have fun knowing that if she wants to get better and follow my advice ....

.... which is: don't carry concealed until you have had some formal training that you do on your own without me. My only formal training has been with the Oregon Firearms Academy so I told her at a minimum it should be training to Defensive Handgun 1 standards but preferably to DH 2 standards before she contemplated CCing for real.

She said she would think about it. Translation: probably ain't gonna happen.

Your thoughts?

Thanks.

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[jbett98]

How about Kimber's Pepper Blaster II spray. Runs about $32.00 and should do the trick.

 

[Guilty]

If she has a concealed handgun license, let her carry in her purse. You are limiting your thinking that the only scenario possible is where a "bad guy" comes upon her and she only has seconds to react. What about the scenario that you described with the transient, couldn't she have had time to go to her purse and retreive her gun while she called 911? What about the possibility for a road rage scenario, wouldn't she have time to go to her purse and retreive her gun while she called 911?
Training can always help, but there will be circumstances and scenarios where she will have more than a few seconds to react so why not encourage her to conceal carry?
Maybe she will become aware of different scenarios and take interest in additional training, but for now, let her decide if she is going to conceal carry and don't discourage her.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

I think it's great that you have arbitrary and proprietarily ranked training.
Requiring her to do the same though is asinine. So are the worst case scenario stories you are feeding her.

Just ask yourself, if that person had broken in and was coming at her, would you feel better about her being defenseless because she doesnt have the same proprietary training rank as you?

I know that you say you've recognized that you both are responsible for your own safety... but you have effectively talked her into relying on the police.

 

[rkoreis]

+1 on the pepper spray. Gives her an opportunity to move to a safer place and get help. Carrying without good, formal training is asking for trouble. Is she going to hit the intended target or someone else? Does she have the judgement to know when NOT to shoot?

Just because you are allowed to do something doesn't mean you should.

 

[Uberdillo]

What needs to be salient is your interest in her safety and your wholehearted support in finding a place where or person with whom she wants to train. Don't let her think she's limited to OFA. For some folks, they've got to find a way to make it their thing before they can give themselves to it fully. I think it's great that you recognized that her progressing in taking responsibility for her safety may not happen with you in the room, but you can support it nonetheless. Pepper spray sounds like a great first move and you can demo that in the back yard, preferably with good eye-pro; it's been kinda windy.

 

[Kevatc]

What needs to be salient is your interest in her safety and your wholehearted support in finding a place where or person with whom she wants to train. Don't let her think she's limited to OFA. For some folks, they've got to find a way to make it their thing before they can give themselves to it fully. I think it's great that you recognized that her progressing in taking responsibility for her safety may not happen with you in the room, but you can support it nonetheless. Pepper spray sounds like a great first move and you can demo that in the back yard, preferably with good eye-pro; it's been kinda windy.

Thanks. We talked about a variety of options including pepper spray. Of course she isn't limited to OFA but it is close and they offer very good instruction and training.

As rkoreis asked will she hit the intended target or someone else? Even at modest self defense distances I have my doubts. She needs lots more trigger time and someone other than me to instruct her so it's an independent source and not me sounding like Charlie Brown's teacher.

 

[Kevatc]

I think it's great that you have arbitrary and proprietarily ranked training.
Requiring her to do the same though is asinine. So are the worst case scenario stories you are feeding her.

Just ask yourself, if that person had broken in and was coming at her, would you feel better about her being defenseless because she doesnt have the same proprietary training rank as you?

I know that you say you've recognized that you both are responsible for your own safety... but you have effectively talked her into relying on the police.

No, we talked about other options regarding safety as well. I didn't include that in my OP because it was long enough as it was.

I've seen enough incompetent shooters out and about to know that I would hope that somebody who CC's all the time would've practiced enough on their own or had some formal instruction. Last thing I would want around me is someone who did the minimum to get a CC permit and then rarely if ever practice. Just because you get your permit/license doesn't make you competent.

 

[Uberdillo]

Of course she isn't limited to OFA

Didn't want to assume where you're at, and I've had my own moments where once I realized I wasn't locked into a particular venue, the world opened to my eyes. Anyway, I imagine a short window of a few weeks maybe where she's actively thinking about the situation. I'd want her to be talking about it, if not with me, then with a friend or co-worker. I'd be wondering if there's a chance to get her co-worker to sign up for a class with her or what she'd think about that.

 

[Thebastidge]

Too much "my way or the highway" on this thread.

Guys, he's raising some legitimate concerns. I don't agee 100% with all of his conclusions and actions, but there are always nuances that come out when you actually know the person. All of our speculation is academic, his is first-hand. So ease up on the criticism part and try to be more constructive.

So I would not have tried to talk her out of carrying. I would have e-emphasized the responsibility and how much more confident she would feel if she follows up on some instruction. My best friend's wife has a similar issue with frustration when he tries to teach her things. He's not super patient and she has a low frustration point.

The approach with beginners should not include stress. In fact, the best approach with beginners is to remove as much stress as possible. You add the stress to stretch their abilities once they are no longer beginners. This is very dependent upon the individual. Slow is smooth an smooth is fact. You really should work on foundational skills before more advanced stuff. Get the stance down, get the unhurried, aimed shots in the accurate zone. Then work on something more advanced like drawing from an open holster. Then drawing from concealment. Engaging multiple targets is even more advanced.

 

[Swedish K]

Some people should not carry regardless of permit. I recall a retired guy who carried when he went on his walks "for protection" but he was one of those people who thought the mere sight of a gun would scare the bad guys off and never had any intention of actually shooting to stop the threat. He was out on his normal walk and a car full of gang banger thugs pulls up next to him, one jumps out and pulls a knife telling him to hand over the wallet and everything he's got. That day he armed a punk thug with a loaded .38 rather than shoot him, and got a beating to boot.

As stated by others above, we don't know your wife, how she would react under pressure, if she would be able to hit the target at say 15 feet, if she would take the backdrop into consideration (innocent bystanders, etc.), or even if she has thought about if she could pull the trigger in a defense situation. You might want to discuss some of those points making sure that reasons are given including that your first concern is her safety. I say this as I know my wife tends to listen much better to requests if there are valid reasons behind them than if they make no sense to her... Who knows, she may decide to get more training and start carrying so be prepared to up the ammo budget without complaint.

 

[Wifey]

The approach with beginners should not include stress. In fact, the best approach with beginners is to remove as much stress as possible. You add the stress to stretch their abilities once they are no longer beginners. This is very dependent upon the individual. Slow is smooth an smooth is fact. You really should work on foundational skills before more advanced stuff. Get the stance down, get the unhurried, aimed shots in the accurate zone. Then work on something more advanced like drawing from an open holster. Then drawing from concealment. Engaging multiple targets is even more advanced.[/QUOTE]

I couldn't agree more on the stress issue.
I have my CC, although I don't carry all the time, but I would not be as comfortable with my decision to carry had I not taken a class. It was a Basic Handgun Skills class - I have yet to take a defensive class but someday will.
I don't practice as much as I should either, but certainly agree that practice and hands-on are detrimental if she is to carry. I understand and agree with the dress issue when carrying for a woman, but there is much reading and learning she can/should do on this. I believe that purse-carry is not the best but for around $50 she can buy a CC purse. How I carry depends on where I'm going, what I'm doing and what I'm wearing. I would guess the dress issue is somewhat the same for men?
Does she use the internet? You could suggest she sign onto the women's section here on the board and ask some questions on the issue. This way it would be her own thing and she wouldn't feel any pressure from you - if that's an issue. While it wouldn't be the same as practicing it would be very informational to her.
Good luck with her/your decision on this.

Wifey

 

[lamrith]

The approach with beginners should not include stress. In fact, the best approach with beginners is to remove as much stress as possible. You add the stress to stretch their abilities once they are no longer beginners. This is very dependent upon the individual. Slow is smooth an smooth is fact. You really should work on foundational skills before more advanced stuff. Get the stance down, get the unhurried, aimed shots in the accurate zone. Then work on something more advanced like drawing from an open holster. Then drawing from concealment. Engaging multiple targets is even more advanced.

I couldn't agree more on the stress issue.
I have my CC, although I don't carry all the time, but I would not be as comfortable with my decision to carry had I not taken a class. It was a Basic Handgun Skills class - I have yet to take a defensive class but someday will.
I don't practice as much as I should either, but certainly agree that practice and hands-on are detrimental if she is to carry. I understand and agree with the dress issue when carrying for a woman, but there is much reading and learning she can/should do on this. I believe that purse-carry is not the best but for around $50 she can buy a CC purse. How I carry depends on where I'm going, what I'm doing and what I'm wearing. I would guess the dress issue is somewhat the same for men?
Does she use the internet? You could suggest she sign onto the women's section here on the board and ask some questions on the issue. This way it would be her own thing and she wouldn't feel any pressure from you - if that's an issue. While it wouldn't be the same as practicing it would be very informational to her.
Good luck with her/your decision on this.

Wifey

We are all armchair quarterbacks on this one, but I have to side with those that do not agree with persuading her not to carry. It is a rare enough situation to have a person in general, let alone a woman in a position to be able to defend themselves and not rely on the police. By all means if she has the license and the desire let her carry and help her. Forcing her to conform to your way is not the best plan and has obviously created stress.

Is she able to hit her target consistently? If so, she has the basics, and likely more than most of the 370,000+ that carry in WA. The other issue mentioned and even more important is does she have the mental mindset to actually use her handgun if the situation calls for it, can she shoot knowing it make take anothers life to protect her own? If she can do those two things, then let her carry, why make her a sheep? Keep going to the range and let her shoot at her liesure and enjoy it.

If not I would recommend as mentioned take a basic handgun class. Attend with her if you wish, or better yet see if you can find a woman specific class, I hear it helps quite a bit to remove the stress and increase the comfort level.

Once she is competant with a firearm, then look into defensive classes, trying to teach her yourself is likely not a good idea, I know it would not be with my wife once I convince her to go to the range with me. You have crossed the toughest hurdle, getting her the license and willing to carry, why pull back now unless she has shown you something specific that make you question her ability/safety?

 

[Kevatc]

Thanks everyone for your opinions, thoughts, and advice. Obviously, everyone is providing their two cents based on what they think and not with personal experience as it relates to my wife and her experiences.

First off, my "stress" on my wife is more of a joking "hurry" rather than a formal training "hurry". She doesn't respond well to stress and it is painfully obvious that her CC class didn't stress her either. What I failed to mention in my OP is that she has had her CC permit for 2 years now. Her motivation stems from her being a realtor hosting an open house and having a very bad feeling about a particular visitor. At that time we talked about all her options and strategies to help keep her safe including getting her CC permit. I fully supported her efforts, then and now I told her she needed to practice. She is a person who has a CC permit but has done nothing to support it since. I absolutely agree with her obtaining her CC but I just feel like her lack of skills will make a gun a liability rather than an asset.

Should she carry consistently? YES.

Can she use a tool effectively and consistently? I don't think so at this point.

 

[Wifey]

I fully agree that the lack of skills would make it a liability. Yes, she should carry consistently, but at least for me, that is a lesson in itself. Just as I practice handling and shooting the gun, I practice carrying it as well. That's why I carry differently at times. You have to learn not only how to carry it but also how to draw from your carry position.
Perhaps she should start by carrying just to get used to it. I kind of feel like that may make her a little more aware of all that needs to be considered.
Wifey

 

[shooter58]

Even someone who has never held a gun could make good use of it given the right set of circumstances and timing. To make a judgment of not to carry because she is not a "trained operator" (my words) just limits the possible outcome of a confrontation to 100% on the side of the bad guy. Your thoughtful thinking along the lines of proper training is great and by all means continue that process. As you have pointed out, she can shoot. That is a good start and I would rather have her armed than not. Just keep pushing the responsibility aspect of carrying full time.

 

[lamrith]

Kevtac - That additional info does alter the overall situation a bit.

Any thought to airsoft training? Depending on what she is carrying you can often get a replica and it would let her practice whenever/wherever/however she wants...

 

[MountainBear]

Even someone who has never held a gun could make good use of it given the right set of circumstances and timing. To make a judgment of not to carry because she is not a "trained operator" (my words) just limits the possible outcome of a confrontation to 100% on the side of the bad guy. Your thoughtful thinking along the lines of proper training is great and by all means continue that process. As you have pointed out, she can shoot. That is a good start and I would rather have her armed than not. Just keep pushing the responsibility aspect of carrying full time.

Sure, she may know how to shoot. But does she know when to shoot, where to shoot, and what to do after she shoots? If the CCW class she took was similar to the ones i am familiar with, then her knowledge on these topics is minimal at best. Often overlooked in a defensive handgun training class is the information as well as the shooting skills. Things like every bullet has a lawyer attached to it, don't shoot to wound or kill, shoot to stop the threat. Things like what to do after the incident to avoid being mistaken for the aggressor rather than the victim.

Until anyone has a firm grasp on this, then they may want to think about getting training before choosing to carry a firearm for self-defense.

Incidentally I highly recomend both OFA and Thunder Ranchas great options for training in Oregon. If you can afford the time and cost, TR is amazing. If you cannot, then OFA is a wonderful alternative to those with either time or budget constraints.

 

[shooter58]

Sure, she may know how to shoot. But does she know when to shoot, where to shoot, and what to do after she shoots? If the CCW class she took was similar to the ones i am familiar with, then her knowledge on these topics is minimal at best. Often overlooked in a defensive handgun training class is the information as well as the shooting skills. Things like every bullet has a lawyer attached to it, don't shoot to wound or kill, shoot to stop the threat. Things like what to do after the incident to avoid being mistaken for the aggressor rather than the victim.

Until anyone has a firm grasp on this, then they may want to think about getting training before choosing to carry a firearm for self-defense.

Incidentally I highly recomend both OFA and Thunder Ranchas great options for training in Oregon. If you can afford the time and cost, TR is amazing. If you cannot, then OFA is a wonderful alternative to those with either time or budget constraints.

I can't disagree with anything you have said. All true and I especially agree with the training as a key part of the responsibility of carry. So who gets to decide which of us have enough training to carry? You can see the point I am trying to make here. My right to carry and defend myself is a personal choice regardless of my level of expertise. I am more than competent with my weapons but to some I may be "under trained" and should not be allowed to carry. This is my argument...

 

[Kevatc]

I can't disagree with anything you have said. All true and I especially agree with the training as a key part of the responsibility of carry. So who gets to decide which of us have enough training to carry? You can see the point I am trying to make here. My right to carry and defend myself is a personal choice regardless of my level of expertise. I am more than competent with my weapons but to some I may be "under trained" and should not be allowed to carry. This is my argument...

I don't know who should get to decide. Who decided that what a person has to do now is enough? Do you feel that what is required now is enough across the board? To me, just requiring 50 rounds with no stress could give a person a false sense of competence.