Talk me into buying an AR-15

[Misterbill]

Go ahead and cite me just one "home invasion" where the homeowner/rightful tenant fired 30+ rounds, necessitating a "quick reload."

How about this one for starters. (remember that we don't and never WILL know how many rounds were fired in almost all home invasions).

Raw Video: Home Invasion Ends in Shootout - YouTube

If overpenetration is a concern with a shotgun, #1 Buck in the Federal Flight Control load is a good mitigator, tight patterns with lower mass pellets.

Doesn't address the points brought up. And if BOT is your source, check 00 Buck vs 9mm.

"Precision up close is not an AR strong suit due to the height of the sights over the bore. It certainly can be compensated for with a red dot or extensive practice over the irons, but you have to decide what distance you want to be zeroed for before a fight. In the beyond remote odds of having to make a hostage shot across a room, a shotgun with a known pattern can be used on a head shot by aiming higher and to the left or right on the BG's noggin, as needed, especially when using a Flight Control load.

Spoken from someone who has limited experience on the AR platform. I've trained with them on both Iron sights AND holo-sights, and they are OUTSTANDING close-range performers. You are simply misinformed. Frontsight AND gunsight BOTH use AR's in a close combat scenario (less than 20 feet) to solid effect, INCLUDING hostage shots. I'm sorry you're AR was Zeroed in at 200 yards and didn't do the same at 19, but that's on you, not the rifle. -OPERATOR ERROR.

Honestly, this is the most ridiculous and misguided part of your entire post. Otherwise state your credentials for saying Gunsight and EVERY SWAT TEAM IN THE COUNTRY doesn't know what it's talking about.

From the Box of Truth, Federal Flight Control #1 Buck at 15 yards on the left. Standard #00 Buck on the right.

Which has nothing to do with anything.

 

[Boats]

It was my point about the height of AR iron sights over the bore being confused in the "summary."

The difference in the height of the iron sights relative to the bore doesn't make the AR lack "precision." My point was at room distances, the height difference has to be taken into account because if the rifle is zeroed at 100M, the "hostage shot" will be high, and possibly miss, if you don't compensate.

Same thing for the AK too. The sights are really tall over the bore. Up close it has to be accounted for in these "nightmare shot" scenarios.

 

[Boats]

How about this one for starters. (remember that we don't and never WILL know how many rounds were fired in almost all home invasions).

Raw Video: Home Invasion Ends in Shootout - YouTube





Doesn't address the points brought up. And if BOT is your source, check 00 Buck vs 9mm.





Spoken from someone who has limited experience on the AR platform. I've trained with them on both Iron sights AND holo-sights, and they are OUTSTANDING close-range performers. You are simply misinformed. Frontsight AND gunsight BOTH use AR's in a close combat scenario (less than 20 feet) to solid effect, INCLUDING hostage shots. I'm sorry you're AR was Zeroed in at 200 yards and didn't do the same at 19, but that's on you, not the rifle. -OPERATOR ERROR.

Honestly, this is the most ridiculous and misguided part of your entire post. Otherwise state your credentials for saying Gunsight and EVERY SWAT TEAM IN THE COUNTRY doesn't know what it's talking about.



Which has nothing to do with anything.

Lighten up, I wasn't attacking the black rifle. A high volume shoot out is the exception, not the rule. Preparing for the exception isn't totally rational.

My point about the AR sights is that you have to practice those shots. You cannot just take it for granted that you can go to sportsmans warehouse, pick up an M&P 15 and zap bad guys in the forehead that evening just because ARs are inherently accurate or some BS like that. I know how to zero a rifle, but if Joe Blow doesn't he's gonna miss.

Likewise, my point about shotguns and the "hostage shot" is that a shotgun set up for success, and practiced with regularly, can easily make that shot at typical room distances.

I don't give a bubblegum what the cool kids do or what their dogma is. The question from the OP is whether he needs an AR. Try as you might to fantasize one into existence, there is no need.

 

[Netspirit]

It was my point about the height of AR iron sights over the bore being confused in the "summary."

I don't think there was a confusion. I think everybody understood that the issue was in the difference between the point of aim (POA) and the point of impact (POI) at close ranges. I would agree that the issue is real, looking at some pictures of high-sitting optics.

 

[Misterbill]

Lighten up, I wasn't attacking the black rifle. A high volume shoot out is the exception, not the rule. Preparing for the exception isn't totally rational.

My point about the AR sights is that you have to practice those shots. You cannot just take it for granted that you can go to sportsmans warehouse, pick up an M&P 15 and zap bad guys in the forehead that evening just because ARs are inherently accurate or some BS like that. I know how to zero a rifle, but if Joe Blow doesn't he's gonna miss..

If "quote" "Joe Blow" "doesn't know" how to zero a rifle, that's nothing on the platform. It's everything to do with Joe Blow If you're thinking I was saying that the AR is ideal for any jackass that won't take a moment to know his equipment, then you have obviously both never taken any classes on the subject, nor have much faith in your fellow citizens.

My experience is that people who will take the trouble of spending $600+ on a firearm, generally want to know how to use it.

Again, as a TRAINER, someone who makes their living money teaching this stuff, you are WRONG in all possible departments.

1. Most of my students want to know EXACTLY how their weapon will perform and alter their behaviors based the information received.
2. "Joe Jackass" Will not learn from ANY information presented. These are the people I send home before we even GET to range days.

If you're big concern is with the outliers, then by all means start your own school dedicated to people who are too stupid or obnoxious to learn. -Good for you.

Likewise, my point about shotguns and the "hostage shot" is that a shotgun set up for success, and practiced with regularly, can easily make that shot at typical room distances.

I don't give a bubblegum what the cool kids do or what their dogma is. The question from the OP is whether he needs an AR. Try as you might to fantasize one into existence, there is no need.

I made solid, evidence-based claims for the AR vs. the shotty. What you have to retort with is that the average joe is too stupid to zero his rifle, and that given practice, with the right loads and LOTS of practice ( I TEACH DEFENSIVE SHOTGUN), a shotgun is ALMOST as precise as a rifle. Happy Hunting. You just missed THIS boar by 100 yards.

If you're a real glutton for punishment, post some more. I will be happy to make fun of you.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Whoever said that holding off with buckshot in a hostage situation is preferable to an AR has obviously not shot an AR at close range. dood

 

[Boats]

Lol. This inability to read, to reason, and to control aggression are why most AR shooters are in my "shoot first with 7.5 Swiss or .30-06, and check the corpse later" category in my informal SHTF bible.

No one said a shotgun was "preferable" to your Barbie gun for a hostage shot, only that it can be done if need be, and ONLY if the shooter knows the patterns of their shot and has practiced to take such a shot. It's certainly not my first choice for a hostage shot either, but if my 590A1 is what I have at that moment, it's gonna have to do. That is ALL that has been claimed on behalf of the shotgun.

I have purposely ignored the "over penetration" game because of this dynamic that always appears in the threads:

"My AR won't over penetrate drywall. My AR will defeat Level IV body armor." Which is it? Jungle clipped or something? Don't get your veins in your head distended figuring out this conundrum, please.

All this time, I have only claimed that the shooter of an AR, or an AK, both of which have tall sights relative to their bores, have to account for that difference up close, in situations such as the "hostage shot" where inches supposedly matter. In response, there has been some "scientifically" determined nonsense that most people who buy a $600 bargain basement AR are going to train with it. How much more off base could that notion be?

But bottom line, what we have here is an "instructor" whose skin is as thin as a third degree burn patient, twisting my words to make a point that is not being contested. I find it surprising you can make any money with your petulant temper.

Once more for the slow learners here. The AR is a very capable rifle platform. DOES THE OP "NEED" ONE?

The answer remains no.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Lol. This inability to read, to reason, and to control aggression are why most AR shooters are in my "shoot first with 7.5 Swiss or .30-06, and check the corpse later" in my informal SHTF bible.

No one said a shotgun was "preferable" to your Barbie gun for a hostage shot, only that it can be done if need be, and ONLY if the shooter knows the patterns of their shot and has practiced to take such a shot. It's certainly not my first choice for a hostage shot either, but if my 590A1 is what I have at that moment, it's gonna have to do. That is ALL that has been claimed on behalf of the shotgun.

I have purposely ignored the "over penetration" game because of this dynamic that always appears in the threads:

"My AR won't over penetrate drywall. My AR will defeat Level IV body armor." Which is it? Jungle clipped or something? Don't get your veins in your head distended figuring out this conundrum, please.

All this time, I have only claimed that the shooter of an AR, or an AK, both of which have tall sights relative to their bores, have to account for that difference up close, in situations such as the "hostage shot" where inches supposedly matter. In response, there has been some "scientifically" determined nonsense that most people who buy a $600 bargain basement AR are going to train with it. How much more off base could that notion be?

But bottom line, what we have here is an "instructor" whose skin is as thin as a third degree burn patient, twisting my words to make a point that is not being contested. I find it surprising you can make any money with your petulant temper.

Once more for the slow learners here. The AR is a very capable rifle platform. DOES THE OP "NEED" ONE?

The answer remains no.

What a tool. As was suggested, it's probably best for you to just stop.

 

[Boats]

I am a tool because you can't read? Interesting.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I'll just leave you and your shovel alone.
Good luck.

 

[RBid]

I don't give a bubblegum what the cool kids do or what their dogma is. The question from the OP is whether he needs an AR. Try as you might to fantasize one into existence, there is no need.

There's no need for a fire extinguisher, until there's a fire.

There's no need for a flashlight , until the power goes out.

There's no need for a seatbelt, until somebody blows a red light as you're entering an intersection.

There's no need for a first aid kit, until somebody is bleeding profusely.

Etc.

 

[Boats]

There's no need for a fire extinguisher, until there's a fire.

There's no need for a flashlight , until the power goes out.

There's no need for a seatbelt, until somebody blows a red light as you're entering an intersection.

There's no need for a first aid kit, until somebody is bleeding profusely.

Etc.

So, the OP's fire extinguisher, flash light, first aid kit, or whatever euphemism has to be an AR? It can't be an AK, or a Mini-14, or an 870?

His "fire extinguisher" in his urban apartment can't be a Glock 19?

He doesn't need an AR. Why is that so controversial?

 

[RBid]

So, the OP's fire extinguisher, flash light, first aid kit, or whatever euphemism has to be an AR? It can't be an AK, or a Mini-14, or an 870?

His "fire extinguisher" in his urban apartment can't be a Glock 19?

He doesn't need an AR. Why is that so controversial?

I'm speaking more in terms of the need to have a fire extinguisher. I'm with you in that it can be a Mini 14, AK, etc.

When I read your post, I mistakenly read it as a blanket statement about semiautomatic rifles. My bad, if it was a reference only to the specific pattern.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I'm speaking more in terms of the need to have a fire extinguisher. I'm with you in that it can be a Mini 14, AK, etc.

When I read your post, I mistakenly read it as a blanket statement about semiautomatic rifles. My bad, if it was a reference only to the specific pattern.

I think you missed the part where he said he'd shoot anyone with a Barbie gun.

 

[Boats]

I think you missed the part where he said he'd shoot anyone with a Barbie gun.

Yes, because that was said in all seriousness and wasn't at all tongue in cheek.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/AR-15-barbie-for-men/134707996569254



The essence of this thread in a nutshell:

OP: I sometimes need to cut things with a knife, do I really need a 12" Bowie Fighting Knife for that?

AR Fan: HELLYA! It's the bestest for EVERYTHING. You ain't got nothing if you don't have one.

OP: I can't get by with a paring knife, or a small chef's knife?

AR Fan: NO. Look at what all of the donut eaters and secret squirrels use. Are you better than them somehow?

 

[dwaineshort]

My wife had never shot a rifle in her life. With a few minutes on how to use my AR15 with an Eotech 512 she hit clay pigeons at 75rds 30 out of 30 shoots. On a Glock 17 she had a hard time hitting a human size target at 15 feet. The case you make for an AR is that pretty much anyone can use it with all most no training. Sure nice optic does make a difference, but she also did well with the Magpul flip up sites.

 

[Netspirit]

All right. Each of your responses made sense - for me, some sounded more important than others.

Those who said that I did not *need* a semi-auto rifle were probably right. Truly, the S is extremely unlikely to HTF, I do not expect multiple armed intruders, not a hunter, not into competitive shooting (at least not yet), and so on.

However, apart from pure needs there are emotional wants, and I kind of wanted to add that part of the firearms culture to my life (since living in the US and not shooting one is like visiting Hawaii and avoiding its beaches because you do not *need* them). So I went ahead and surrendered to the urge: bought a new Daniel Defense V7 LW for $1,099 (from sgcusa.com) plus $15 shipping, which sounded like a decent deal.

Thanks everyone!

 

[Stomper]

If you are going to go, GO BIG!!

Congrats on the DD!

 

[Boats]

All right. Each of your responses made sense - for me, some sounded more important than others.

Those who said that I did not *need* a semi-auto rifle were probably right. Truly, the S is extremely unlikely to HTF, I do not expect multiple armed intruders, not a hunter, not into competitive shooting (at least not yet), and so on.

However, apart from pure needs there are emotional wants, and I kind of wanted to add that part of the firearms culture to my life (since living in the US and not shooting one is like visiting Hawaii and avoiding its beaches because you do not *need* them). So I went ahead and surrendered to the urge: bought a new Daniel Defense V7 LW for $1,099 (from sgcusa.com) plus $15 shipping, which sounded like a decent deal.

Thanks everyone!

Congratulations on your purchase of a very fine AR specimen. Use it in good health. If nothing else, at least you realize you wanted it rather than needed it.

 

[biggie24420]

Are you responsible?
Do you refuse to be a slave?
Do you value your "rights"?
Are you mentally capable?

...... it's your obligation and responsibility as a citizen to own guns! It's our duty as citizens to protect when the time comes and you don't want to be caught with your pants down and not be armed when the time comes to protect you and yours.

I personally think that if you are responsible and a good person, you should own a gun. I don't think you have to be a citizen to own guns (yes I know you don't have to be a citizen to buy, but you have to be a citizen have the license to conceal carry) because if someone is mentally capable and responsible, he/she has the right to use a firearm to defend him or herself.